Essendon ASADA update

[GCSkiwi]

Talking of Hird considering high court action?

If he does, surely the bombers will flick him on and curse themselves for not doing it sooner... Might even try to wrangle Bomber Thompson back?
I mean the club didn't agree with his call to appeal at the Federal court, surely if he goes even further that's an untenable position??

[Capper]

Talking of Hird considering high court action?

If he does, surely the bombers will flick him on and curse themselves for not doing it sooner... Might even try to wrangle Bomber Thompson back?
I mean the club didn't agree with his call to appeal at the Federal court, surely if he goes even further that's an untenable position??

nah Bomber isnt coming back. He is sick of all the shower going on.

Hird is hurting the bombers, they need to split for the sake of the club

[The_Captain]

When is James hird getting arrested?

[AFEV]

When is James hird getting arrested?

Ah, what? Not in the slightest do I support Hird at this point but this seems outlandish. :P

[Cookie Monster]

Hird can fight all he wants now, i really don't mind. But if it drags on like it did last year and before, then there's a problem.

Just as long is it's done before the season then coach away.

[AFEV]

See in my mind the season has already started, and it has already been a distraction.
I would hope that a high court appeal would be the last straw.

[Cookie Monster]

Yeah it can be a distraction, but it's not like it's the middle of the season and we have to go to perth and during the week Hird can't be there because of court..

He can't be there now but with pre-season the strength and conditioning coach does most of the work.

If this can all be done by round 1 then fine. I don't really mind about things going to mid to late feb

[H1bb3i2d]

I'm sure the tribunal matters are a bigger distraction to the players than Hird's court cases. His failed appeal had 0 negative affects on the whole ASADA outcome. Why suddenly (again) call for his head?

[tbagrocks]

I think there might be something mentally wrong with Jimmy "The Fraud" Hird, either he lacks the empathy those wall street flogheads do or he is actually mentally retarded! That pathetic wife is no better!

[T Dog]

Speak your mind TB don't hold back..c'mon unleash your thoughts  ;D

[Grazz]

Yeh don't hold back Tbag haha.
Bit harsh on his wife mate.

[GCSkiwi]

I'm sure the tribunal matters are a bigger distraction to the players than Hird's court cases. His failed appeal had 0 negative affects on the whole ASADA outcome. Why suddenly (again) call for his head?

Well for one it's an impediment to the process, officially or not. ASADA are technically allowed to proceed as they wish but if Hirdy keeps challenging the legality of the investigation then any action they take may come back to bite them if their investigation gets thrown out. The problem is that from the information we're getting, it really seems like absolutely tenuous straw clutching now... First they tried to argue the stuff they took was legal, now they're tying to argue the investigation was illegal, it's smoke and mirrors to distract people from the much more straightforward process:

1) Did players take the substance(s) in question? No one appears to be arguing they didn't

2) Were these substances legal? In the case of Thymosin, cut and dry, no. AOD9604 the bombers claim they were told it was fine. To me then the onus is on them to prove they were given that information, there is no way in hell a pro sports team does not document something like that. "We were concerned about the legality of this supplement, so we decided to ask, but we didn't keep a record of the response" - Really? They don't appear to be able to do that, and besides I don't believe ASADA is going after anyone on that anymore anyway.

So, we have players that did take substances that they cannot prove they were given permission to take. What sane reason is there NOT to ban them?

I know this is a bombers forum and I appreciate that the fans don't want to see their team crippled, and I really feel for the players in this because I believe they were duped. But that DOESN'T absolve them of responsibility, and the club has dug itself a hole by fighting to the extent they have...

Ban the players, players subsequently sue the shower out of the club, fair outcome achieved. Not an ideal outcome for a bombers supporter, but this is professional sport.

[AaronKirk]

I'm sure the tribunal matters are a bigger distraction to the players than Hird's court cases. His failed appeal had 0 negative affects on the whole ASADA outcome. Why suddenly (again) call for his head?

Well for one it's an impediment to the process, officially or not. ASADA are technically allowed to proceed as they wish but if Hirdy keeps challenging the legality of the investigation then any action they take may come back to bite them if their investigation gets thrown out. The problem is that from the information we're getting, it really seems like absolutely tenuous straw clutching now... First they tried to argue the stuff they took was legal, now they're tying to argue the investigation was illegal, it's smoke and mirrors to distract people from the much more straightforward process:

1) Did players take the substance(s) in question? No one appears to be arguing they didn't

2) Were these substances legal? In the case of Thymosin, cut and dry, no. AOD9604 the bombers claim they were told it was fine. To me then the onus is on them to prove they were given that information, there is no way in hell a pro sports team does not document something like that. "We were concerned about the legality of this supplement, so we decided to ask, but we didn't keep a record of the response" - Really? They don't appear to be able to do that, and besides I don't believe ASADA is going after anyone on that anymore anyway.

So, we have players that did take substances that they cannot prove they were given permission to take. What sane reason is there NOT to ban them?

I know this is a bombers forum and I appreciate that the fans don't want to see their team crippled, and I really feel for the players in this because I believe they were duped. But that DOESN'T absolve them of responsibility, and the club has dug itself a hole by fighting to the extent they have...

Ban the players, players subsequently sue the shower out of the club, fair outcome achieved. Not an ideal outcome for a bombers supporter, but this is professional sport.

AOD9604 isn't being prosecuted by ASADA- ASADA flowered that one up and have been told by their legal people that they cannot get infraction notices for AOD9604.

The substance being prosecuted is Thymosin beta-4. The players have never admitted to taking Thymosin. Never.

It is up to ASADA, and not the players, to prove beyond the balance of probabilities that the players took Thymosin to the AFL tribunal.

As we know the 2 star witnesses for ASADA have refused to testify. I wonder how this affects the ASADA case. Is their evidence strong enough to get convictions. Most people in the know would say no but the case is ongoing.

So back to your 2 points:

1) Did the players take Thymosin Beta 4- ASADA says yes, the players say no.

2) Were the substances legal. Clearly not - back to point 1.

Remember it is the AFL and not ASADA who will decide whether the players will end up being suspended.

[GCSkiwi]

1) Did the players take Thymosin Beta 4- ASADA says yes, the players say no.

No, they haven't said anything either way. My point was this:

1) Did players take the substance(s) in question? No one appears to be arguing they didn't

The bombers defensive strategy has been to try and quash the legality of the investigation, they've actively stalled the process of getting to the tribunal and tried to have the ASADA case thrown out before it gets there. If they're so confident that there's no evidence of there being any wrong doing, why did the not simply say "come at me bro" to ASADA, and take it to tribunal straight away? You're absolutely right, burden of proof is on ASADA, so why did Essendon try so hard to stop them getting to that point?

Remember it is the AFL and not ASADA who will decide whether the players will end up being suspended.

I'm well aware of that, I've explained elsewhere I used to be a tested competitor myself. But the reality is that it's a technicality, the anti doping body (ASADA) recommends a course of action, the sporting governance body (AFL) decides whether or not to take action and to what extent, and if that is not to the satisfaction of the anti doping body (ASADA or higher into WADA) then they appeal it.

I know AOD9604 is no longer part of the hit list, my point was that when it first came out there was all the back and forths over whether the bombers were advised by ASADA that it was ok to take, but the bombers couldn't come up with proof. With my experience of being in drug tested sport, that is literally UNBELIEVABLE. I was never competing professionally or at such a level I wanted to look for "grey area" supplements for the extra 1%, but the rules are extremely strict. If I was diabetic and had insulin injections, they would need to be documented and approved. Or anaphylactics with adrenalin epi pens. Medically approved and necessary items, they're fine so long as you have clearance to have them.

Keep in mind that ASADA absolutely DO NOT need proof that players took these substances. Having actual physical evidence of a player doping makes their case a lot easier but there's a lot of technicalities in the rules, simply having banned substances is enough, if you're a tour de france cyclist who has some EPO in his trailer then you'll get banned, regardless of whether or not you actually took it. In some sports even things such as the delivery mechanism are enough, ie if you have the gear to do a blood transfusion, you could be banned, regardless of whether it had been used. If ASADA have evidence that the club had thymosin and needles that Doc Reid can't explain the need for, then they're already in a bad place. Not to mention that Watson spilled the beans when he went on On the Couch, and everyone thought that was because the club had something worked out with ASADA. I said then that was a very bad move and there was no way ASADA would just let it slide. Here we go.

I think there's a bit of naivety and misunderstanding about just how strict this kind of thing is, I used to compete in martial arts internationally and was in tested events, none of which were professional (ie all unpaid). Plenty of urine samples, and one of the guys on the team with me was a type 1 diabetic, he had to declare and get clearance for his insulin because it was an injectable, despite the fact it was one of those autoinjector pen things (I dunno what the proper name for them is). I wouldn't be surprised if anyone who needed to carry and epi pen had to do the same, though I'm unaware of anyone in that situation. If I had carried one of his insulin pens in my bag, there would have been an awful lot of questions in the very least... So I have to say I was quite amused by all the rumbling about them just being let off with a slap on the wrist, that's definitely not the way WADA rolls...

I was not a professional, and I knew damn well that hard questions would be asked if I had something as easily explainable as an insulin pen on me, even if I had a team mate with a medical reason to have them who had clearance. And I'm supposed to believe that in a professional organisation, no-one thought "hey, keeping a clearly documented record of what we've been told about this AOD stuff in an easy to find place would be a good idea"? It's laughable. So even if AOD is no longer in ASADAs sights, the image that paints of the club's disposition towards anti-doping regulations is not exactly flattering.

So yes, burden of proof is on ASADA, but they don't need to prove that players actually took anything, there's a myriad of things players could be banned for without ever even taking it. And if Essendon aren't worried about that eventuality, why have they so desperately tried to prevent it from ever getting to tribunal?

[Ricochet]

Dont you watch Suits GCSkiwi? :P :P The first thing to do is try and squash cases before they get to court