NBA Season 2013-14

[Holz]

The flower.... We all know the rings argument is flawed. Lbj has being doing things only MJ has done. Numbers dont lie. LBJ is closer to 2nd than he is closer to 5th or 6th. I wou,dnt even blink an eye if someone put him as number 2.

when he retires i have no issue with 2 or even 1. But not this early.

Kareem Magic and even Duncan have achieved more than he has. Its not all about rings but if  Duncans gets his 5th and his continual winning year after year has to have him ahead.

[Andrew3747]

6/7 years of pure eliteness never seen since MJ is enough for him to be > almost everyone. If he retired 2moro, he would still be top 5 without a shadow of a doubt.

[AFEV]

Disagree.
LBJ I would have ahead of Tim as a player, even now.
People talk about the sustained success of TD like it's something that LeBron hasn't done. 10 seasons, 8 seasons of 50< wins, 5 NBA finals, back to back finals wins. That is genuine sustained success over a decade.

As individual players good luck trying to argue TD>LBJ, as much as I admire TD.

I'd still take TD to start a franchise though, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's better. I'd also take Kareem over MJ to start a franchise. /blasphemy :P

[Andrew3747]

I agree except the part about starting franchise. I'd still take LBJ. 10 seasons of number 1/2 value is > TD's 13. I'd def take Kareem>MJ careers though.

Also one for the kobe lovers.


Duncan: 1, 3, 1, 3, 1, 3, 5, 5, 6, 4
Garnett: 2, 2, 4, 4, 2, 1, 7, 24, 10, 8
Dirk: 4, 6, 6, 8, 5, 7, 20, 21, 4, 9
LeBron: NA, rook, soph, 9, 3, 2, 1, 2, 1, 1
Wade: NA, rook, soph, 6, 6, 25, 3, 3, 7, 7
Dwight: NA, NA, rook, soph, 15, 4, 4, 2, 1, 2
CP3: NA, NA, NA, rook, soph, 9, 2, 7, 3, 3
Kobe: 14, 18, 20, 11, 11, 6, 9, 18, 38, 65

This is sort by RAPM. Adjusted plus minus. I wonder who is the odd one out?

[Holz]

note Duncan is only ahead if he gets hist 5th ring.

Would definately take Lebron over Duncan to start a franchise though.

If i was starting a franchie and could have anyone from history it would be Magic/Lebron 1 and 2 than Jordan.

[AFEV]

The only reason I said TD over LeBron for the franchise is due to uncertainty over his durability later in his career with his play style.
If he holds up, he'd be the second best franchise guy after Kareem OAT in my opinion.

I don't feel like those last two for Kobe could be right, adjusted +/-  of 38/65? WTF?

[Andrew3747]

He just isn't that good lol. His best ever is 6 and when he had his best ever season it was 14, and they didnt even make the playoffs.

[Jay]

Come on Jay you can't be serious!

if lebron retired right now, even I would have to put duncan ahead of him. Duncan for me has done the most of any active player and is the number 1 in his position. 99% chance that Lebron will be better once you compare careers when he retires but if Duncan gets his 5th ring I have to put him above Lebron at present.

If Lebron gets his 3rd to Duncans 4 than he overtakes him.

Finally, someone gets what I'm saying! I'm not putting LeBron above guys who have achieved more than him until his career is over. He'll probably pass Timmy, yes, but he hasn't yet. That's why I'm hesitant about placing LeBron on top 10 lists, he is still building on his legacy. And its disrespectful to the dudes that achieved more than him e.g. Timmy, to just extrapolate LeBron's career and use that as a reason to put him high on a top 10 list.

The flower.... We all know the rings argument is flawed. Lbj has being doing things only MJ has done. Numbers dont lie. LBJ is closer to 2nd than he is closer to 5th or 6th. I wou,dnt even blink an eye if someone put him as number 2.

Michael, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Russell... Forget about any of them? LeBron being at 5 is very very generous... 2 rings, seriously!? 2 rings does not get you in top 5 all time, not even close. LeBron needs at least 3.

Disagree.
LBJ I would have ahead of Tim as a player, even now.
People talk about the sustained success of TD like it's something that LeBron hasn't done. 10 seasons, 8 seasons of 50< wins, 5 NBA finals, back to back finals wins. That is genuine sustained success over a decade.

As individual players good luck trying to argue TD>LBJ, as much as I admire TD.

I'd still take TD to start a franchise though, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's better. I'd also take Kareem over MJ to start a franchise. /blasphemy :P

Also had multiple failures though, has not been as consistent as Timmy. Are we forgetting about LeBron's 'decision' to join two all-stars as well? Does that take anything away from him?

He just isn't that good lol. His best ever is 6 and when he had his best ever season it was 14, and they didnt even make the playoffs.

5 rings... Cmon man.

[Master Q]

Well, if they both retired tomorrow, the rings argument is invalid seeing LeBron beat Duncan last year! If anything, Duncan needs to win now... and even if he does, I still think Bron is better.

LeBron joined a HOF and an average All-Star

TD has played most of his career with two future HOF and spent half a decade with the Admiral, CURRENT HOF.

LeBron has proved that he can win rings, he has got two, could win a third, and could spend another 10 seasons in the NBA whether he is the No.1 option or the third, who knows.

The ring argument is rubbish.

I'm a diehard Celtics fan and I hate the Heat, but LeBron could easily be the second greatest player of all time, and I won't rule out the best.

Timmy is 9 or 10 for me.

[AFEV]

3 rings as a second fiddle though.
For those first 3, he gets similar credit to what Pippen gets for his 6 with MJ. No, Shaq wouldn't have won without Kobe, but they're Shaq's titles.

I think there might be a little bit of selective reasoning here. The Legend only had 3 titles, perhaps less individual accolades but he's CLEARLY better than LeBron? Okay.
In two weeks LeBron might have equalled that total, and if he beats TD and co. for a second time does that perhaps give him an edge over Tim due to that?

And no, moving to Miami doesn't hurt him at all, come on now. Cleveland is an absolute train wreck of an organisation and you can't blame him for wanting to leave. If he goes back in his Twilight and secures the cities first Championship in I don't know how long that'll be huge, but if he never goes back it's pretty understandable.
Even the best need their support cast.

Tim had Robinson, Parker, Ginobili - All are/will be HOFers.
Michael had Pippen, Rodman - Both HOFers.
Shaq had Kobe - HOFer.
Magic had Kareem, Worthy - HOFers.

Oh, but LBJ needed something more than Delonte West, must be shower.

[AFEV]

Q I'm pretty sure Bosh will probably be in the HOF down the track, so he joined 2 HOFers.

Not attacking you in any way BTW Jay, sorry if it comes of like that haha, you're the one that provoked an interest in basketball for me and it's me equal second favourite sport now so I'm in your debt here. :P ;)

[Andrew3747]

LBJ is better player than everyone bar MJ. I just don't know how you can excuse elite numbers and year after year, but reward second fiddle rings. Excuse elite LBJ who single handedly made Cleveland the best team in the league for 3 seasons straight. No idea how your brain works, but you def have something against LBJ if you can't see how elite and good he is.

Also, you think Rings>Eliteness? Derek Fisher>Parker.

[Master Q]

Q I'm pretty sure Bosh will probably be in the HOF down the track, so he joined 2 HOFers.

Not attacking you in any way BTW Jay, sorry if it comes of like that haha, you're the one that provoked an interest in basketball for me and it's me equal second favourite sport now so I'm in your debt here. :P ;)

I'd be kinda disappointed if he is inducted into the HOF. Only made the playoffs twice with Rono' and didn't make it past the first round. Sure he is the leading scorer there, but eh.

Jay I am totally attacking you  :P but I'm with Andrew and Alex here. Starting to think you are Skip Bayless with all these ridiculous calls...

[AFEV]

Eh, 9x All Star and 2x Championship, and counting.
I think he'll make it, maybe not, but the HOF isn't exactly elite as it should be.

[Jay]

I'd lean more towards saying that Ray Allen beat the Spurs last year since LeBron was mediocre, but I get your point. You do realise that Duncan is 38 and has already beaten LeBron in the finals once? I can't see how if Duncan gets his 5th, you can still have LBJ in front of him. 5 rings as the best player on each one is remarkable, not many have ever done that. Can LeBron replicate that? Im not sure, I think he is already declining and his game will drop away quickly when he loses his athleticism. And Duncans legacy is already secure. I hope you guys do realise that Bosh is a very good third wheel... I hope you also realise that when Timmy won his first ring, the Admiral was already 33 and in his 10th season. Meanwhile 22 year old Tim Duncan still captured the finals MVP. Its not like The Admiral carried Timmy to the ring:

1998-99 regular season:
Timmy: 22 points, 11 boards
Admiral: 16 points, 10 boards

1999 playoffs:
Timmy: 23 points, 12 boards
Admiral: 16 points, 10 boads

Also should take into account Timmy making Manu and Tony into HOFers, are they really HOF players without the greatest PF ever?



I think its just the fact that The Legend won his 3 titles going through Magic's Lakers and Isiah's Pistons, sorry but The Legend doesn't lose to Dirk's Mavs, he just doesn't... To be honest, no disrespect to Pippen, but he is vastly over-rated. That first MJ threepeat he had Pippen and not anyone else apart from maybe Horace Grant. That's really not a great supporting cast.



I'm bias, but I think Bird in his prime beats LeBron in his prime. How on earth were Cleveland the best team in the league for 3 seasons? They never won a finals game?