Adelaide's midfield v Richmond's midfield

[elephants]

I'm sorry but I stopped reading when you compared Cooney to Deledio and Sloane.

[meow meow]

I'm sorry but I stopped reading when you compared Cooney to Deledio and Sloane.

I'm just saying that they're the 3rd best mids at their club. Clearly Deledio is the best of the 3.

You may be surprised, but Cooney's output was almost exactly the same as Sloane's when judging them by the stats. Sloane averaged less than one more possession, less contested posssessions but more goals than Cooney (unsubbed).

[Ziplock]

Pitty science has little to do with how well a team will do in 2013, and some current pb's are proving it, how's Adelaide going since the sports sciemce left the club? How's Essendon been going recentelly? Give me an old fasioned Coach any day

The Crows have a better contested ball and depth, stop being silly about the Richmond line up

stop talking shower mate. All clubs use sports science to some degree or another- that's what, at the very least, the majority of the pre-season is about: finding the exact right balance between fitness, strength, diet to get your body as close to perfect as possible for the season. It's hard to demonstrate the difference science makes in AFL, but it's easier to demonstrate in a quantifiable sport like the 100m.

Olympics, 1896: Mens 100m winner was Bourke, running a time of 12.0
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athletics_at_the_1896_Summer_Olympics_%E2%80%93_Men%27s_100_metres

You could try to explain that away by increased population and participation, but when it comes down to it, that's a freaking highschool time.

Compared to Bolts world record of: 9.58 seconds.

How was that achieved? By combinations of training, diet and form to maximise output. Or, in other words, sports science.

' how's Adelaide going since the sports sciemce left the club?'

last time I check, you guys didn't win the flag... so clearly you're not doing everything right- and that could have been the issue.

or it could just be that adelaide sucks.

booooooooooooo.

that being said, I'm sure that if science has such little impact on how a team will perform in the AFL, if you ask them really nicely I'm sure adelaide will have the intelligence to sell off their facilities to turn a really nice profit this year, and go back to training once a week... with a pre match warm up as well of course.

[Grazz]

Enjoyed it right to Adelaide sucks, Finishing 2nd missing a GF by a kick, and that= sucks mmmmm. :P

[Ziplock]

booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

that game was completely the hawks to lose- their accuracy in front of goal was atrocious :P

[Sapientia]

I'll chime in with some unwanted comparisons with a team that is flying under the radar and may sneak up the ladder sooner than most people expect.

Only listing players who are good enough to play in 2013.


Thompson
Tuck
Boyd

Dangerfield
Cotchin
Griffen

Sloane
Deledio
Cooney

Vince
Foley
Cross

Van Berlo
Grigg
Picken

Mackay
Jackson
Wallis

Douglas (fwd)
Conca
Liberatore

Wright (fwd)
D. Martin (fwd)
Lower

Porplyzia (fwd)
Edwards (fwd)
Higgins (fwd)

Crouch
Lonergan
Clay Smith

Kerridge
Knights (fwd)
Dahlhaus (fwd)

B. Martin
Ellis
Howard

Joyce
Vlaustin
Koby

-
-
Macrae (Compo pick for Callan Ward. Imagine if he wasn't poached) , Hrovat, Stringer (fwd), Hunter (fwd)



I'm not including Brodie Smith, Reilly, Otten or any of the other Crows since they are backmen only, except for Petrenko who is a forward only. Same deal for Houli and Newman, and Easton Wood. Christian Howard is likely to play on a wing this year but he would be classed with these blokes.

Once we start getting to the 6th-12th mids, the Dogs have the others covered and they're only going to get better. How long will it take? Bennell from GC is a star in just 2 seasons, and Wallis, Libba and Dahlhaus could all become guns in 2013.

Okay this is a terrible post for a number of reasons.

1. I could do the exact same thing you've done with Dogs players with say, Essendon or Brisbane players and make it look similar
2. Having a good midfield is all good and well, but Richmond have that and are still floundering a little, and that's with a a spearhead in Jacky Roo. Where are the Dogs goals going to come from?
3. While each little 'matchup' looks alright, when you look at the big picture it all adds up. The Crows/Tiges win each match up in the first 7 comfortably enough, combined that's a huge win. There's also (save for Tuck) a lot more upside in the first two teams's players and a lot of decline in Cross/Boyd/Cooney left.
4. Who really cares about the 8th-12th midfielders. Rarely used, rarely needed. Much prefer an elite top 6 to slightly better depth
5. A lot of the players you've listed aren't midfielders... Dahlhaus, Porplyzia, Knights, Edwards, B. Martin, Ellis, Howard, there's even a case for Grigg and Vlastuin. As well as Stringer who's probably going to be a key forward.
6. Just like Wallis, Libba etc. could take the next step - in fact I think Wallis will... virtually every side will have someone who does so. In saying Wallis and Libba taking the next step puts the Dogs above the others, it doesn't consider that most other clubs will have like players taking the next step.

And to the next post:

There's a lot more to rucking than Hitouts. Hitouts to advantage for one! I'd take Jacobs or ugh Maric over Minson any day. Both provide more stability in the middle and movement around the ground, but that's just my opinon.

And to the next:

A handball is considered an effective possesion even if it goes 2 metres uncontested. A lot of Boyd and Cross's disposal count consists of simpler handballs. While I don't doubt they're both good players - Cross especially is perenially underrated, I'd take Dangerfield, Cotchin, Sloane or Deledio any day over them. There are more than just statistics - intangibles and stuff that contribute.

In short - your statistics have just been blatantly cherry picked to provide a one sided argument. Stats are incredible easy to manipulate into one's favour and you've provided the perfect example.

You can't put age classes on improvement either... yes, the younger the quicker the improvement - generally. But often, often players go from being good to great at 26 or 27. Adelaide have 42 players capable of improvement, as do every afl club. I don't think the Dogs have more improvement across the board than anyone else - especially when you factor in the probable decline of the older players (and loss of Lake, Hargrave and Gilbee).

And as much as I love Cooney, his knee - in particular his patella is royally flowered. He'll never be the same, he's even admitted it.

I'd love the Dogs to do well, I really would - and I think McCartney's an excellent coach but I don't think their time is now. They're going to need a slow rebuild, not a quick one as there are too many deficiencies to quickly address.

[meow meow]

I'll chime in with some unwanted comparisons with a team that is flying under the radar and may sneak up the ladder sooner than most people expect.

Only listing players who are good enough to play in 2013.


Thompson
Tuck
Boyd

Dangerfield
Cotchin
Griffen

Sloane
Deledio
Cooney

Vince
Foley
Cross

Van Berlo
Grigg
Picken

Mackay
Jackson
Wallis

Douglas (fwd)
Conca
Liberatore

Wright (fwd)
D. Martin (fwd)
Lower

Porplyzia (fwd)
Edwards (fwd)
Higgins (fwd)

Crouch
Lonergan
Clay Smith

Kerridge
Knights (fwd)
Dahlhaus (fwd)

B. Martin
Ellis
Howard

Joyce
Vlaustin
Koby

-
-
Macrae (Compo pick for Callan Ward. Imagine if he wasn't poached) , Hrovat, Stringer (fwd), Hunter (fwd)



I'm not including Brodie Smith, Reilly, Otten or any of the other Crows since they are backmen only, except for Petrenko who is a forward only. Same deal for Houli and Newman, and Easton Wood. Christian Howard is likely to play on a wing this year but he would be classed with these blokes.

Once we start getting to the 6th-12th mids, the Dogs have the others covered and they're only going to get better. How long will it take? Bennell from GC is a star in just 2 seasons, and Wallis, Libba and Dahlhaus could all become guns in 2013.

Okay this is a terrible post for a number of reasons.

1. I could do the exact same thing you've done with Dogs players with say, Essendon or Brisbane players and make it look similar
2. Having a good midfield is all good and well, but Richmond have that and are still floundering a little, and that's with a a spearhead in Jacky Roo. Where are the Dogs goals going to come from?
3. While each little 'matchup' looks alright, when you look at the big picture it all adds up. The Crows/Tiges win each match up in the first 7 comfortably enough, combined that's a huge win. There's also (save for Tuck) a lot more upside in the first two teams's players and a lot of decline in Cross/Boyd/Cooney left.
4. Who really cares about the 8th-12th midfielders. Rarely used, rarely needed. Much prefer an elite top 6 to slightly better depth
5. A lot of the players you've listed aren't midfielders... Dahlhaus, Porplyzia, Knights, Edwards, B. Martin, Ellis, Howard, there's even a case for Grigg and Vlastuin. As well as Stringer who's probably going to be a key forward.
6. Just like Wallis, Libba etc. could take the next step - in fact I think Wallis will... virtually every side will have someone who does so. In saying Wallis and Libba taking the next step puts the Dogs above the others, it doesn't consider that most other clubs will have like players taking the next step.

And to the next post:

There's a lot more to rucking than Hitouts. Hitouts to advantage for one! I'd take Jacobs or ugh Maric over Minson any day. Both provide more stability in the middle and movement around the ground, but that's just my opinon.

And to the next:

A handball is considered an effective possesion even if it goes 2 metres uncontested. A lot of Boyd and Cross's disposal count consists of simpler handballs. While I don't doubt they're both good players - Cross especially is perenially underrated, I'd take Dangerfield, Cotchin, Sloane or Deledio any day over them. There are more than just statistics - intangibles and stuff that contribute.

In short - your statistics have just been blatantly cherry picked to provide a one sided argument. Stats are incredible easy to manipulate into one's favour and you've provided the perfect example.

You can't put age classes on improvement either... yes, the younger the quicker the improvement - generally. But often, often players go from being good to great at 26 or 27. Adelaide have 42 players capable of improvement, as do every afl club. I don't think the Dogs have more improvement across the board than anyone else - especially when you factor in the probable decline of the older players (and loss of Lake, Hargrave and Gilbee).

And as much as I love Cooney, his knee - in particular his patella is royally flowered. He'll never be the same, he's even admitted it.

I'd love the Dogs to do well, I really would - and I think McCartney's an excellent coach but I don't think their time is now. They're going to need a slow rebuild, not a quick one as there are too many deficiencies to quickly address.

1. Correct, I could have picked another team but I'd prefer to hype up my own team.
2. I'm comparing midfields only. Who's at FF is completely irrelevant.
3. I wouldn't say that Thommo and Tuck are comfortably better than Boyd. Jackson and Mackay better than Wallis? Conca and Douglas better than Libba? C'mon.
4. This was to show the depth, and who will have to play if an injury hits. Will the Crows be able to have a clean bill of health for two years in a row?
5. They are a part of midfield rotations so I included them. If you don't think Grigg isn't a midfielder I suggest you watch a Richmond game. Plays on the wing every single week.
6. I can't see anyone from Adelaide who is primed to take the next step. Who am I missing? There isn't anyone coming through for the Crows who will significantly improve their midfield in 2013. That was the point of the list. Things change quickly in football and if you're not improving you are going backwards.

I agree with your points about the rucks. Minson isn't a total spud but the other two are superior. This was simply to stir up Tbag and his blatant bias towards SA boys like Big Will.

I picked the stats that are important. I could have added stuff like tackles and you'll find plenty of Bulldogs in the top 10 there too. I could have pointed out that Thompson gives away 30 more free kicks than the next worst if I wanted to cherry pick the stats. I don't think the FA stat matters as much though. Obviously stats are not the be all and end all, but to completely disregard them makes no sense.
The Bulldogs are one of the top 8 teams for clearances differentials - a stat that matters. Liberatore and Wallis are ranked 14th and 30th in the entire AFL for clearances per game. Combine their 2012 stats with their expected improvement and I think that definitely matters and is worthy of consideration. There is every chance that their influence on matches could overtake that of Vince and NVB's in 2013.

Thommo might get better in 2013, but I think it's safe to assume that the improvement in Wallis will be greater. I'd be confident that Liberatore will improve more than Vince. Again, what does the loss of Lake, Hargrave and Gilbee have to do with the midfield?

Cooney won't be as good as he was at his peak. I'm not saying he will, I am saying he should be at least as good as Sloane. Even with his flowered knee he still has some great games and moments of brilliance. His 2011 game against Carlton was as good as any in his brownlow year. The treatment he has received over in Germany is allowing him to play with far less pain so he shouild be able to play more often and contribute more. He hasn't lost any of his explosive burst speed or strength.

We're already 2 years into our rebuild. Wallis and Libba will be coming up to 50 games soon. The midfield is in good condition, it's just the other areas of the ground that need major improvement. This exercise was purely about midfields.

[Sapientia]

Well I assumed it fair to attack all parts of the Dogs given your opening statement was

'I'll chime in with some unwanted comparisons with a team that is flying under the radar and may sneak up the ladder sooner than most people expect.'

Essentially in implying that they may sneak up the ladder, I reckon it opens up the argument to a 22, not an 8 man midfield.

You can't really say 'we're going to sneak up the ladder....but you can't consider our backs or forwards in your reply'

Get what I'm saying?

[meow meow]

Well I assumed it fair to attack all parts of the Dogs given your opening statement was

'I'll chime in with some unwanted comparisons with a team that is flying under the radar and may sneak up the ladder sooner than most people expect.'

Essentially in implying that they may sneak up the ladder, I reckon it opens up the argument to a 22, not an 8 man midfield.

You can't really say 'we're going to sneak up the ladder....but you can't consider our backs or forwards in your reply'

Get what I'm saying?

Fair point.

I'm saying that our midfield is already good enough to compete with just about anyone. Take note of how we performed against Carlton, Collingwood and Geelong X2. Beat all those midfields in clearances and contested ball. Smashed North. Our mids will improve in 2013 with the addition of Lower and the improvement in Wallis and Liberatore, and we'll actually dominate midfields, not just break even.

As you are well aware, Talia's don't take long to improve. Ours was All Australian at under 18 level two years ago and the only player who beat Patton every time he played on him. I'm backing him to hold down CHB in 2013. Roughy, Dahlhaus, Cordy, Campbell, and Howard have been a part of the rebuild for two or three years. It's not going to take forever. Many people are saying we'll go backwards in 2013 and finish last. When we win 10 games those people will be surprised.