'Loyalty' in the 'business' of AFL - j959's rant against AFL CEO's hypocrisy #1

[j959]

this might get moved to the AFL boards but i wanted to intersperse the great Elxam awards topics for some more varied good ol' fashioned FB chat ...  ;)

1st version had 2 issues but was tldr ...

Demetriou i think has done a decent job growing the game and developing it in his time as AFL CEO. i think he is a bit overpaid but his salary isn't way over the top. the thing that gives me the sh*ts about him is his hypocrisy in his (especially recent) comments about:

1) 'loyalty' regarding the Mark Harvey shafting/Ross Lyon paratrooping; &
2) in relation to the AFL & AFLPA pay dispute - ie 'there is no more money'.


1) my case for the affirmative of Demetriou being a huge hypocrite on this issue is the unspoken AFL sanctioned back-door dealings regarding the 2 start-up clubs GCS & GWS, recruiting of established/junior players. I couldn't stomach Andrew Demetriou's comments about Lyon's and Freo's questionable loyalty when the AFL allows GAJ, Rischa, Bock, Davis, Ward, Scully et al to move clubs under huge shadows ...

Now i don't hold any old 'romantic' notions of 1-club player greats anymore because the game went professional a fair while ago (i would argue even back to Freo/Port Adel expansion days) and it is now a business. Some will stay loyal but i can't see many with millions of dollars being waved in front of them, not making a sound financial future decision (eg Scully) not going.

It's fine to do this and grow the game by 'sponsoring' expansion clubs, no problem.

I just think, don't be a hypocrite about it and start saying that you've got 'some concerns for the game' (or whatever drivel/cr*p he was saying) when you have a direct hand or influence over those dealings. Do it, allow it to happen, be upfront about it and for flower's sake, don't try to take the frickin moral high ground against it when it happens.   >:(

as BP's pic says, "It's a conspiracy!" ...  ;)

that's my rant on this first of two inter-related issues, cos obviously I could not be bothered finding references for any of it!   ;)

am I being overly crticial of the AFL CEO??
please join in the discussion below ...  8)

[hawk_88]

I had a MASSIVE rant about loyalty at some point around here. http://www.fanfooty.com.au/forum/index.php/topic,35255.msg450342.html#msg450342

To summaries, my point was that loyalty is a bit of a fallacy in a professional relationship.


Now, ignoring my view of loyalty, there is a difference between the cases which may be where Demetriou is coming from.

The AFL players who were changing clubs were out of contract where is the perception was that Lyon broke a contract. I know he had a get out clause so he actually didn't break a contract, but the perception was there.

Also, I think you have to cut him a but of slack. There is the business line he has to tow as CEO and then there is his individual opinion. When under the media spotlight it is difficult to constantly hold back your opinions. Not hypocritical, but not a nice situation either.

Ultimately though, he comments have minimal impact on anything in this case so I'm not really fussed.

[j959]

I had a MASSIVE rant about loyalty at some point around here. http://www.fanfooty.com.au/forum/index.php/topic,35255.msg450342.html#msg450342

To summaries, my point was that loyalty is a bit of a fallacy in a professional relationship.

you made really good points in that post, even if the last paragraph was a bit cynical.   ;)

i agree with your points in that post on loyalty but i'm not willing to give the CEO an out on his comments!  ;)

Now, ignoring my view of loyalty, there is a difference between the cases which may be where Demetriou is coming from.

The AFL players who were changing clubs were out of contract where is the perception was that Lyon broke a contract. I know he had a get out clause so he actually didn't break a contract, but the perception was there.

Also, I think you have to cut him a but of slack. There is the business line he has to tow as CEO and then there is his individual opinion. When under the media spotlight it is difficult to constantly hold back your opinions. Not hypocritical, but not a nice situation either.

Ultimately though, he comments have minimal impact on anything in this case so I'm not really fussed.

not going to cut him much slack, he's the CEO, that's why he gets paid the big bucks!
he created the business line, buck stops with him!  ;)

definitely hypocritical imo, coaches have been getting knifed in the back for years and I think can be generally tracked back to the move to clubs as businesses/corporations away from the old community club you describe in your post.

it's business, you made it that way so don't cry now that you can't have your cake and eat it too ...
it's like I saw Robert Walls mention about Sheeds' comments about Mark Harvey getting stabbed in the back, he didn't say anything when Matthew Knights got 'boned' ... where was Demetriou when that happened, i don't recall any sort of similar concerns fom him when that happened ...  ???   >:(

[Justin Bieber]

The move to get Knights out and Hird in was basically the same situation we have with Harvey getting the sack. I didn't like the way it was handled with Knights still having a year (or two) left to run on his contract. They blamed the coach for what went wrong when they don't look at other factors (e.g team, youth, injuries, etc).

AFL is becoming more like politics, where only the business-like people will end up on top. Players and Coaches will go where the money is. Although players such as Power, McDonald, Cornes, etc move clubs as there is no longer a place in their team, which is understandable. Some players left due to not being respected as much (E.g Lions exodus with Riska, Brennan and Bradshaw). I can understand the lure of money and loyalty will certainly be tested. If anybody had millions of dollars waved in front of them for a few years work, who wouldn't want to take it?

Some will move for money and some will move for job security. I agree Demetriou is a tad hypocritical saying this causes concern for the game after what he's done with Suns/Giants. As Hawk said, he may not necessarily like it as an AFL follower, but his job will tell him otherwise. He's fighting a battle with himself which he ultimately has to follow his business side due to getting the $$$.

P.S I hope Sheeds takes on Harvey as an assistant if he can't find a Senior job elsewhere 8).

[hawk_88]

Taking loyalty out of it, so many people have been talking about the "cut throat business" that has followed the AFL becoming professional.

I think many people have a misconception about the nature of "business". Business isn't about lying, deceiving, etc. In fact there are laws restricting a lot of that behaviour and the rest is simply considered poor business practice.

Unlike the AFL, when contracts are broken, often court action and mediation are taken for damages. It is not the done thing in AFL so things are often let go. In many ways it makes the contracts worth less than the paper they are printed on as people often held to account.

Now Lyon didn't break a contract, but what he did do was deceive St Kilda and his management as to his intentions who were both conducting negotiations in good faith. You burn bridges business (and in life) you will find yourself stranded. Reputation means everything in business.

It isn't Lyon going to Fremantle that I have an issue with. In fact I think it is a smart move for both parties. It is the way in which they went about doing it that will ultimately damage their reputations long term. Not in terms of the public eye, which in many ways is irrelevant, but more so with people who actually deal with those parties. You can't run a successful business when people fear for the job security. You can't tell me that Fremantle employees won't be watching their back.

Same for Lyon, who describes himself as a career coach. When it comes time to negotiate with Fremantle or some other club, "good faith" will be difficult to reach.


This is why I reject the claims of hypocrisy. Striving for a professional league does not mean you in any way endorse bad business practice, simply because it is some form of business practice.

As for not commenting on Knights, so what. We don't know 100% that he never commented on the issue and even if he didn't, maybe he should of. I can't accept that because he acted in a particular way on one issue he has to do the same now. Who is to say he acted in the right way in the first and you can hardly say the issues are related. If he had commented on the Knights sacking, do you think this would have played out any differently?

[bundyboy]

Now Lyon didn't break a contract, but what he did do was deceive St Kilda and his management as to his intentions who were both conducting negotiations in good faith. You burn bridges business (and in life) you will find yourself stranded. Reputation means everything in business.

It isn't Lyon going to Fremantle that I have an issue with. In fact I think it is a smart move for both parties. It is the way in which they went about doing it that will ultimately damage their reputations long term. Not in terms of the public eye, which in many ways is irrelevant, but more so with people who actually deal with those parties. You can't run a successful business when people fear for the job security. You can't tell me that Fremantle employees won't be watching their back.

Same for Lyon, who describes himself as a career coach. When it comes time to negotiate with Fremantle or some other club, "good faith" will be difficult to reach.

I tend to agree  - I'm sure not many people like how things went down with Harvey, and probably not even Knights - even with the Messiah coming in, it still didn't smell right.....
but irrespective, it's certainly not illegal, or unusual - and with free agency coming on , just wait to see how these kind of issues hot up over the next 5 years for players even more-so than coaches.

Loyalty - really probably gone in the professional environment AFL now works in - the $$ are just too big, and I can't blame anyone for taking the cash...

that said - like many people, I DO have a problem about how these things get done..

Ross Lyon might have been absolutely technically correct, but gee.....he has burnt some bridges here...and people DO have long memories.   If he doesn't have some serious sucess at Freeo, he will struggle to find another gig back East in 4-5 years !  I so wish he had given the Saints and his mgmt group the courtesy of a meeting and conversation before hand !

Same view of Freeo board/management...quick knife in the back of Harvey is not easily forgotten, and how comfortable can anyone be there??  how is Lyon going to feel in 3 years if Freeo are not in the top 8 ??   Very Very nervous you would think.

Carma is a dog - I think you take great risks acting without a real moral centre.  Being technically correct doesn't cut it when people look back and sit in judgement on what kind of person you are...

beware chasing the dollars but losing your self respect.....

So - from coaches / club management - watch out how you go about it...!!

from a players perspective, I'm much more relaxed...they have a very limited window of years to make their money - so I say good luck to Scully and co for looking after themselves....for the last 10+ years I recon club loyalty only seems to cut one way - so if you don't look after yourself, don't expect the club to do so for you....  No way is he worth $1m per year, but equally, no way he could knock it back !
Hopefully some sanity will come back in player prices once GWS settle down next year....

[hawk_88]

The other thing that goes against Fremantle, and I can't believe they released this info, was that talks started with them enquiring about him coaching in 2013, unaware of is out clause. So they were planning to have a deal organised to oust Harvey at the end of his contract 12 months ahead. How would that organisation function properly if that actually happened?

[Grazz]

Very well articulated Bundy, couldn't of expressed my sentiments any better than that. I agree and feel exactly the same.
My 2 cents worth on free trading, i feel it will be the death of a few clubs, those clubs that struggle to generate a substantial income over and above what they outlay per annum will eventually be in the gun sight. The AFL in their wisdom know this and i feel its just a backdoor way of going about things without being labelled the Bad Guys. I don't give much credit to Demetriou for much in the way of improving the game during his term so far, i think the game basically sells itself and has generated its own momentum to get it where it is today because we love it. I'll give him credit for the huge dollars the TV rights bought in this time, but lets face it he was just sitting at the helm watching a bidding war go on around him, and wandering how big a pay rise he was going to get, that was his motivation. As you may well guess, i don't like the bloke. He gets paid big bucks and backs away from the big decisions to do it by stealth. Any number of people in Football in this country would be qualified to run the AFl, its a blue chip enterprise that drives its own success and pulls in massive capital, how hard could it be.

[Grazz]

The other thing that goes against Fremantle, and I can't believe they released this info, was that talks started with them enquiring about him coaching in 2013, unaware of is out clause. So they were planning to have a deal organised to oust Harvey at the end of his contract 12 months ahead. How would that organisation function properly if that actually happened?

I find it amazing that this secret managed to stay a secret. In modern footy its a miracle. As critical as i can be with Freo regarding what has has transpired with Lyons and Harvey i find myself congratulating them just as much. Do i like how its happened no not a bit but as people here have expressed better than i can its a proffesional high paid sport and since the mighty dollar took over the game this has been going on for decades. Coaches have dumped clubs, clubs have dumped coaches. Is anyone worse than the other, well thats just personal oppinion really. I think Freo have probably pulled of the biggest footy koo i can remember for a long time and in a strange sence should probably be congratulated for it. If Freo can make a Grandfinal in the next year or two i think alot of people will be talking alot different about how things happened. I feel for Harv's just like i did Knights but its the way of the world now. Money will overide and buy loyalty these days, loyalty has a new meaning in modern footy terms and with the advent of free trading we will see it disappear altogether. The media are making this bigger than it really is i feel, its happened before and will happen again.

[j959]

Taking loyalty out of it, so many people have been talking about the "cut throat business" that has followed the AFL becoming professional.

I think many people have a misconception about the nature of "business". Business isn't about lying, deceiving, etc. In fact there are laws restricting a lot of that behaviour and the rest is simply considered poor business practice.

that is a very good point hawk but would disagree on the hypocrisy issue.

Unlike the AFL, when contracts are broken, often court action and mediation are taken for damages. It is not the done thing in AFL so things are often let go. In many ways it makes the contracts worth less than the paper they are printed on as people often held to account.

Now Lyon didn't break a contract, but what he did do was deceive St Kilda and his management as to his intentions who were both conducting negotiations in good faith. You burn bridges business (and in life) you will find yourself stranded. Reputation means everything in business.

It isn't Lyon going to Fremantle that I have an issue with. In fact I think it is a smart move for both parties. It is the way in which they went about doing it that will ultimately damage their reputations long term. Not in terms of the public eye, which in many ways is irrelevant, but more so with people who actually deal with those parties. You can't run a successful business when people fear for the job security. You can't tell me that Fremantle employees won't be watching their back.

couldn't agree with you more on the way Freo and Lyon when about things but i reckon the AFL have willingly turned a blind eye on these sorts of things for ages and I find it extremely hypocritical of the CEO to come out and basically insinuate that he didn't know how things got this bad ... basically the AFL has sanctioned/sponsored and allowed it to happen ... that's the hypocrisy of it.

Same for Lyon, who describes himself as a career coach. When it comes time to negotiate with Fremantle or some other club, "good faith" will be difficult to reach.

This is why I reject the claims of hypocrisy. Striving for a professional league does not mean you in any way endorse bad business practice, simply because it is some form of business practice.

disagree because through their silence and aquiescence to allow the game to grow, they have effectively supported this path.
even if they claim that they haven't actively supported it, i would argue that their passiveness is condoning the behaviour.

you can't tell me the CEO didn't secretly cheer GAJ going to Gold Coast if in the best case scenario the AFL had absolutely nothing to do with that deal??  :o

As for not commenting on Knights, so what. We don't know 100% that he never commented on the issue and even if he didn't, maybe he should of. I can't accept that because he acted in a particular way on one issue he has to do the same now. Who is to say he acted in the right way in the first and you can hardly say the issues are related. If he had commented on the Knights sacking, do you think this would have played out any differently?

i just don't recall him having any position at all on the Knights sacking, so why would or should he take the moral high-ground on Mark Harvey's situation??  ;)

that smacks of hypocrisy to me ...  ;)

[j959]

The other thing that goes against Fremantle, and I can't believe they released this info, was that talks started with them enquiring about him coaching in 2013, unaware of is out clause. So they were planning to have a deal organised to oust Harvey at the end of his contract 12 months ahead. How would that organisation function properly if that actually happened?

I find it amazing that this secret managed to stay a secret. In modern footy its a miracle. As critical as i can be with Freo regarding what has has transpired with Lyons and Harvey i find myself congratulating them just as much. Do i like how its happened no not a bit but as people here have expressed better than i can its a proffesional high paid sport and since the mighty dollar took over the game this has been going on for decades. Coaches have dumped clubs, clubs have dumped coaches. Is anyone worse than the other, well thats just personal oppinion really. I think Freo have probably pulled of the biggest footy koo i can remember for a long time and in a strange sence should probably be congratulated for it. If Freo can make a Grandfinal in the next year or two i think alot of people will be talking alot different about how things happened. I feel for Harv's just like i did Knights but its the way of the world now. Money will overide and buy loyalty these days, loyalty has a new meaning in modern footy terms and with the advent of free trading we will see it disappear altogether. The media are making this bigger than it really is i feel, its happened before and will happen again.

agree with Grazz and bundy's points, and Grazz makes an interesting point re AFL being a blue chip enterprise that basically a monkey could've been CEO of and still have it go great guns ...  ;)

though that might be unfair on the monkey ...  ;)

seriously though, AFL could've been flowered up by someone less than decent at the helm but agree the hard decisions haven't been made but i'd put that more down to the nature of the beast with clubs having a significant sphere of influence ...

[hawk_88]

Inaction is not the opposite of action, which is why I disagree with the label hypocrisy. To paraphrase Samuel Johnson, who many consider the father of modern lexicography, "Hypocrisy is not simply failing to practice those virtues that one preaches".

In fact even if Demetriou had said the exact opposite about the Knights case he wouldn't have been hypocritical but rather inconsistent.

There is also a great distinction between the Lyon move and most cases of people moving clubs (including Gary Ablett), and that was the poor way in which it was done. The issue isn't the practice of people moving clubs (coaches, officials or players) but rather how it was handled. Moves have always been poorly handled in the AFL and the professional nature of the modern game has done little to change this either way.

[Grazz]

Lol not necessarily a monkey j959 i would like to add that you would have to have some business acumen and have come from a footy background to ensure you have a good understanding of the game and the people that follow it. There would be a multitude of people involved in the AFL, AFL Footy or been involved in some way and moved on to a business career of some sort that would be qualified to do the job. It wasn't my intention to suggest a monkey could run it even if one is at present.