The politics of being banned

[Bluke]

huh?

[hawk_88]

tl;dr

Translation: too long; didn't read

[Bluke]

fair enough lol

[incog43]

MSM = main stream media

Hawk, you wont have to wait 30 years, its been happening the last 20 already.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibTbcEAqppg

I don't agree with this guy on everything, but he sums it up pretty well.

Look there has just been the greatest transfer of wealth in history take place in the US, the middle class is being destroyed, it
has to be if socialism is to succeed.

The US is now an entitlement nation, too many people depend on the government. They need FREE MONEY.

The outcome of FREE MONEY is an insolvent nation, you are taxing those that earn it to give it to those who expect it. Its a pyramid scheme, sooner or later there are no longer enough of those earning it to transfer to those who expect it, the system collapes, dependence on government becomes almost total. This is not new, this has occurred throughout history.

Did I mention that the US spends more money on its milartary than the rest of the world combined?

The US is broke, get it? There is no comeback, total debt of 103 trillion dollars, a diminishing tax base from which revenues may be collected, an expanding lower income base who require entitlements to sustain their lives. Budgeted deficits for the next 10 years of over 1 trillion a year. What happens when their 10 year rate hits 5%, 6%, 10%.

The US is a consumption based society, whilst still a significant manufacturer, it is no longer the economic powerhouse it once was, it is in fact quickly being overtaken by China, India & the other Bric's.

Empires die, always.

How does it happen, the people are demoralised, they know whats wrong and right, but they WILL NOT stand up for same, they will not protect their constitution,they will not protect their libertys,  they have in fact given up, crisis after crisis has depleted their will.

Right here and now, we have a significant inflection point in time.....Peak Oil...all this infrastructure we have built, cities, nations, all done on the back of CHEAP easily found oil, and now demand outstrips supply, there will never be another edifice like oil, never, ever, within the next 2 - 3 years we are all going to slowly feel the implications of this.

So we have a failing empire, a banana republic with nukes and aircraft carriers trying to sustain its world supremacy, a nation who is used to consuming 20% of world oil production each year. And its broke.

Why is the US in Iraq, why must Gaddaffi fall, oil, its that simple.

Socialism, central planning, command economies simply do not work, there is no point for its members to compete, there is no incentive, this is why they fail.

Look at Oz, entitlement payments are growing, baby boomers retiring, they all want a pension, a health care card, we pay people to have babies, we pay education entitlements, housing, heating, now they want us to pay a disaster tax, a carbon tax. This is simply wealth transfer, from those who have, to those who do not.

Understand this, those who do not have  get a vote, just like those who do have wealth.

Do you think they would vote to cut their entitlements? Get it?

Its death by a 1000 cuts.

Hope that made sense, Im kinda showerfaced, its dole week.

[incog43]

I know you sort of concluded the debate, but I would like to ask a question.

incog43, I have always seen fascism as an opportunist thing, not an inevitable conclusion of some social cycle. However you paint a picture of conspiring G-Men actively manipulating events to empower the state. How do you see future of the US? What would the next 30 years look like, both within the population as well as the relationship of the US with other countries given it's fascist slide?

Obviously your views don't align with mine but I genuinely am curious how you see everything moving forward.

In terms of cycles, its the fourth turning.

In terms of opportunity, that was 9/11.

What was the outcome of 9/11 = a police state, big brother, crisis, the unnamed enemy, the bill of rights being ripped up, bigger government, Iraq, Afgan. Now think about this, if you never want to waste an opportunity...why wait for it, why not not create it.

I really am showerfaced.

[Boomz]

...

[hawk_88]

That was much more a description of the present than the future. You said the outcome is what matters, what is the outcome? All I can really take from that is more of the same (more wars over oil, increasing the poverty divide, etc). Who is orchestrating the "opportunity" and what do they gain from it.

Everything you described there could happen sans socialism, unless you consider any sort of social welfare socialism, in which case the poor simply die. You have to simply look at China, who you mentioned is taking over from the the US in production industries. They are beyond socialism and have moved into communism, yet they are stronger than the US. How do you account for that?

You said that it is those who have being taxed higher and higher to pay for those who don't have, yet they recently passed tax cuts for the rich. How do you explain that.

Lastly, I assume $103 trillion figure is combined private and public debt, because my understanding is that total public debt is under $15 trillion.

[incog43]

That was much more a description of the present than the future. You said the outcome is what matters, what is the outcome? All I can really take from that is more of the same (more wars over oil, increasing the poverty divide, etc). Who is orchestrating the "opportunity" and what do they gain from it.

No, that is the future it will merely get progressively worse, the outcome is the soviet union pre break up, but with a tad of commercialism and reality TV thrown in the keep the morons happy. The people will embrace it, THEY DEPEND on the government to live, get it. What is homeland security if not the Gestapo, or KGB, see the velvet glove though, its "Big Sis" What are lines and body searches at airports (train stations have occurred, remember Osamas Plan to attcack the US rail network, understand now how this will progress) if nothing to get US citizens used to being searched, to condition its children into accepting this ab being "normal", get it? Understand one thing now, they are searching this countrys citizens, not terrorists, its citizens, a nation is being taught to be submissive, hell, after 9/11 they demanded it, right :)

Read Huxley. this is all about power with a dash of money thrown in, also the reality that we live in a world of finite resources yet trade as if the reality was infinite growth.

One question, do you th ink this would have been possible in the America of 40 years ago?

Everything you described there could happen sans socialism, unless you consider any sort of social welfare socialism, in which case the poor simply die. You have to simply look at China, who you mentioned is taking over from the the US in production industries. They are beyond socialism and have moved into communism, yet they are stronger than the US. How do you account for that?

I am not responsible for the poor, you are not responsible for me, you may choose to be, that is up to you. The poor and sick have been dying for 1000's of years, our first and last  line of defence is the family structure and charity, thats where it should stop. Understand the pyramid scheme, the worlds population is Growing, we then divert resources by way of entitlement and transfer payments to those less fortunate, you cannot sustain it, all pyramid schemes fails, you run out of suckers.

Understand this clearly, entitlement spending is the re distribution of wealth pure and simple, this is not free markets.

Understand this, you are not entitled to anything, but, you have been conditioned to believe there is a social contract, there is none, there can't be, we can't afford it. People may choose to assist others, that fine, thats their choice.

Do not look at China and think this is new, empires rise and die throughout history, it just plain happens, an empire that dies decays from the inside out, the people become decadent, why work when you can play the casino that is called the dow, fighting wars they cant afford, debasing their currency, and debt, always debt :)

You said that it is those who have being taxed higher and higher to pay for those who don't have, yet they recently passed tax cuts for the rich. How do you explain that.

Lastly, I assume $103 trillion figure is combined private and public debt, because my understanding is that total public debt is under $15 trillion.

The tax pool is shrinking, the labour force is shrinking, member only 47% of the US labour force actually pays tax due to entitlements and rebates, could this be an entitlement to the rich perhaps?

Please understand this, dont necessarily look at tax cuts/increases, the biggest tax mechanism is actually inflation, its a hidden yax that destroys the value of your assets, its cause, the increase of the money supply, why increase the money supply, to fund wars and pay entitlements to provide housing and health care for the needy, you get my drift.

No, 15 trillo in debt you refer to is only the on balance debt, the balance (103 - 15) is unfunded liabilties that are currently not shown due to preferential accounting standards(the US sates also have this advantage, they are also bankrupt) these liabilities include social security & medicaid payments, simply, 50,000 americans may retire next year, they have contributed to super much as we do in Oz, however, the capital; required to make these pension payments does not exist, it has been spent, its a future debt that will grow each year.

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/guest-post-police-state-amerika

[Bluke]

Wow you have some radical ideas Incognito.. I have a more positive outlook, maybe not for the United States, but certainly for Australia. I'm afraid I still don’t see the Socialist revolution you do.

I still query a lot of your figures. From what I have found, US public and private debt stood at $50 trillion in the first qtr of 2010. Thats a massive increase in a little over a year (although the unfunded liabilities you refer to could account for it?). Still dont know enough about it to really argue the point. However, one fundamental flaw I see in your argument is its ignorance of the Multiplier effect. Yes there is a reallocation of money to those on 'entitlements' but its not like they stick that money straight in the bank, those people always reinject that money into the economy. To eat, to buy new cloths, fill their car with fuel etc..Its not like when we give those on entitlements money it just disapears out of the economy, which is what you seem to be inferring.

In contrast, what I see are limitless possibilities, for replacement fuel sources (renewable, bio, hydro, geothermal), for hybrid governments (functionalist deliberative democracies), for exploration and innovation. Call me an ideologue but I have a bit more faith in the human race that you, evidently.

Empires most certainly decline and/or die. But its not the end of the world.

Search for the Zeitgeist movies on YouTube, they might interest you. Along the same conspiracy theory vein of the one you posted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_994351&v=6pgRUpDDrb0&feature=iv

[incog43]

Wow you have some radical ideas Incognito.. I have a more positive outlook, maybe not for the United States, but certainly for Australia. I'm afraid I still don’t see the Socialist revolution you do.

If the people are so smart, why have the US citizens not seen this coming, are we smarter?
Our demoralisation schedule is running about 10 years behind the US, Dancing with stars, X Factor, Master Chef, we are on the road to becoming complacent.

I still query a lot of your figures. From what I have found, US public and private debt stood at $50 trillion in the first qtr of 2010. Thats a massive increase in a little over a year (although the unfunded liabilities you refer to could account for it?). Still dont know enough about it to really argue the point. However, one fundamental flaw I see in your argument is its ignorance of the Multiplier effect. Yes there is a reallocation of money to those on 'entitlements' but its not like they stick that money straight in the bank, those people always reinject that money into the economy. To eat, to buy new cloths, fill their car with fuel etc..Its not like when we give those on entitlements money it just disapears out of the economy, which is what you seem to be inferring.

NO.
Look up the definition of inflation, it is not rising prices, that is a symptom, its increasing the money supply, inflation is a stealth tax, things may appear to becoming more expensive, they are not, those notes in your wallet are simply losing value.

Multiplier effect supports the argument of an infinite growth paradigm, its not possible, there is a day of reckoning. Its not possible, it contravenes the principles of phermo dynamics.

Consider - what is money?
Understand and review - fractional reserve banking

50 years ago a family could buy a house, the hubby would work and the wife could stay at home if she wanted and bring up the kids, can the majority do this now? Does a family now have 1 car or 2? 1 TV set or 2 or 3....now you begin to understand inflation and the infinite consumption paradigm, get it?



In contrast, what I see are limitless possibilities, for replacement fuel sources (renewable, bio, hydro, geothermal), for hybrid governments (functionalist deliberative democracies), for exploration and innovation. Call me an ideologue but I have a bit more faith in the human race that you, evidently.

Empires most certainly decline and/or die.

Search for the Zeitgeist movies on YouTube, they might interest you. Along the same conspiracy theory vein of the one you posted. Good watch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_994351&v=6pgRUpDDrb0&feature=iv

I share your hope on replacement energy techs, but nothing can replace oil, cheap, low hanging fruit is no longer readily avaliable, now they must search off shore, the artic, have you considered world population growth and its relationship to oil, astonishing, go find a graph. What do you think happens if we remove oil? Any guesses :)

DO NOT underestimate the edifice that is, THERE will never be anything which can replace it which was a cheap and free flowing, the world you see has been created from it, and is indeed dependent on it, remove it, and what is the outcome.

I have hope, BUT only the people can provide, free markets that reward innovation and exploration, governments cant do that, they can only stifle innovation and spend money.

Debt clock below, enjoy :) unfunded liabilities is now 114 trillion, lol.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

[Bluke]

So I take it you’re not an Abbott voter then? ;)

I agree that none of those technologies will replace oil. But the human race can achieve a sustainable existence relying on those techs. Yes it is obvious that the consumptionist paradigm that the US has built its empire on the back on is unsustainable, and the sooner it comes to an end, there better of everyone will be. Unless of course you're Steve Jobs.. Yes I agree that current levels of population growth are unsustainable, but we will always have plenty more natural disasters...

Looking back at history, population levels always have a way of correcting themselves. In the middle ages, when growth outweighed sources of supply, a famine or plague would bring back balance. I'm not saying this is a desirable outcome for us in the 21st century. But things have a way of working themselves out, for better or worse.   

[incog43]

So I take it you’re not an Abbott voter then? ;)

flower them all, they are all parasites. However we created them.

I agree that none of those technologies will replace oil. But the human race can achieve a sustainable existence relying on those techs. Yes it is obvious that the consumptionist paradigm that the US has built its empire on the back on is unsustainable, and the sooner it comes to an end, there better of everyone will be. Unless of course you're Steve Jobs.. Yes I agree that current levels of population growth are unsustainable, but we will always have plenty more natural disasters...

No, it cannot, what has been created by oil, cannot be sustained once it is removed or supply drops significantly. There is a reason the US is in the middle east, what happens when they are asked to leave, or when they determine who gets the oil, or when they decide they should move into libia for the good of the lybians of course :) )

The natural disaster you speak off is war.

Have you considered how vital oil is to food production and transportation, consider that.

Looking back at history, population levels always have a way of correcting themselves. In the middle ages, when growth outweighed sources of supply, a famine or plague would bring back balance. I'm not saying this is a desirable outcome for us in the 21st century. But things have a way of working themselves out, for better or worse.

The population correction you are suggesting would need to be in the vicinity of 4 billion people, that is definitely worse.

I hope that you are right and I am wrong, we shall see.

For interest;

http://www.paulchefurka.ca/World%20Population.JPG

[Bluke]

achieve a sustainable existence relying on those techs

I never said we could maintain our current rates of consumption, or our current existance.

The natural disaster I speak of is climate change, not war.

Environmental and food security will be the biggest challanges to face the human race in the 21st century. Will there be wars? There will most likely always be wars. Will they be wars between states? I believe less so. 90% of the conflicts we see today are internal conflicts.

[AFEV]

It finally got moved.

[hawk_88]

The natural disaster I speak of is climate change, not war.

Environmental and food security will be the biggest challanges to face the human race in the 21st century.

The solution to that is nuclear. It has both has the least impact on the environment and is the safest. The problem being that public perception is slanted so far the other way that it most likely won't happen.