The politics of being banned

[Prospector_1]

OK, so I need to be mighty careful, or stfu!

[incog43]

This is one of the best debates ever at this website - but it ain't footy! It should be in the bar over a beer, not in feedback, but I can't move it!

First, how it concerns me ...

Others (Fenno eg.) already pointed out that I have no banning power,and, for dwite's info, I don't even know who Luke Adams is, let alone make any comment.

Second, on some history, and what little I know ...

As I understand it, the German population had no idea what was necessary, so it seems unfair to blame them. As others pointed out, they were very oppressed by the reparations (which were OTT),following the First WW.

Bluke has answered most of incog's arguments extremely well. I recognise Bluke's political and philosophical education - onya Bluke! I agree that there is no necessity for evil in this world!

I would also like to recognise incog's naive revolutionary approach - I see myself in the mirror! I would like to also acknowledge his humour ... "Five me liberty or give me death!"

While a winning strategy, I challenge incog's argument that "It is only the outcome that matters" - this rejects morals, and is very much the Machiavellian approach. Maybe you mean it is only the INCOME that matters?

I challenge anyone to produce a solid example of Prospector trivialising millions of deaths. Please produce in full, and in context!

I like this one from Talsiman "If you are certain that someone will take offence to a statement, in my humble opinion, that statement no longer falls under the guise of freedom of speech, instead it is simply a mean/nasty (take you pick) comment. That does not amount to heathly debate, but rather humiliation &/or hurt feelings. So the question must then be: why make that comment when no positivity, only hurt, will come of it?"

That, I think, shows some true compassion - more power to you, Talsiman!

I too love a good debate, and this has all the hallmarks of a beauty!

Let's not stop now ...

BTW, what happened to the Original Poster?

Look, I had to hand my dole form in or they stop sending me free money and other goodies.

With regard to outcomes, you miss the point, we all understand the process of how a sovereign nation arrives at fascism et al(pick your poison), but its the outcome of this process that determines our lifestyle, our freedoms and liberties, free markets, planned markets, free press or propaganda.

It takes about 30 years to demoralise a nation, that's all.

Proof? I offer you the USA, body searches at airports, Homelands Security, Tsa, wars all over the world, a political structure embracing socialism, 1 in 6 on government entitlements, the people becoming dependent on the government to live, eat, the people becoming beholding to the government.

That constitution of theirs is only worth something if the people are prepared to defend it, and die for it, otherwise, all it is, is a piece of paper with words on it, much like the work permits the polish jews would show the SS before they were put on the trains, "essential worker", sure, they were just put on the trains anyway.

The move to suppress rights and liberties is made incrementally, small steps, let the people get used to it, not a fist of iron, but a velvet glove, they x-ray or body search millions of american's at US airports each year, soon to be train stations and bus stations, in a wheel chair? Does not matter, 6 months old? Does not matter. The US citizens are in fact being conditioned to regard these search's/x rays as being NORMAL, their children are being conditioned into believing this is NORMAL.  Drones in the sky, call BIG - SIS if you see anything unusual, this is becoming the new NORMAL, collecting names of people who meet the required criteria of home land security as being sus!

This is all in clear violation of the US constitution, nevertheless, it is happening.

As I said above, if you are not prepared to stand up for your rights or the rule of law, any piece of paper guaranteeing same is just that, a piece of paper.

That is demoralization, you know its wrong, but you are not prepared to do anything about it.

Once you begin sacrificing your rights for safety, put a fork in you, cause you are done.

[hawk_88]

I agree that the US is a good candidate to transition into a fascist nation, but I very much disagree with what you identify as the catalyst.

For a start, to claim the US government is embracing socialism is a joke. The US government and the majority of voting citizens are very much anti-socialist. Almost any government assistance is labelled as communist, which ends up producing a population with a large portion of people below or near the poverty line. The lack of universal health care, lack of support for the payment of tertiary education leading to enormous (in the hundreds of thousands) student debt and a reduction in the difference in the tax rate tiers are just a couple of many examples of this.

It is in fact their blind following of a strong ideology, namely the constitution that leaves them susceptible. By ostracising anyone who seeks to question the "ideology" that the constitution perpetuates, you can control the population. It doesn't even have to be written in the constitution, as it isn't a logical position based on knowledge. Most people wouldn't actually know what is in the constitution apart from a few of the amendments.

By uniting a poor people under the great document that will lead to their prosperity (the great American dream), you can have a very obedient population that accept the reduction of their liberties, representing very well through the patriot act as well as the examples you mentioned in the TSA, warrantless wiretaps, no fly lists, etc. It doesn't matter that some of these things actually conflict with what is written in the constitution and amendments, it is under the blind following of the ideology that it represents which has lead to the lack of liberty.

Socialism doesn't lead to fascism. However it, like the US constitution, can be used as the focal ideology to institute a nationalist culture, not that this is what is happening in the US.

[korza]

Monty maybe you should change the following,

Adminstrator > GOD
Veteran coach > Hitler
exper coach > Saddam
Other coaches > Bin Laden
All position coaches > SS Nazi
Boot studder > Jew

If the above is taken as racist and i apologise accordingly.


KORZA

[incog43]

I agree that the US is a good candidate to transition into a fascist nation, but I very much disagree with what you identify as the catalyst.

For a start, to claim the US government is embracing socialism is a joke. The US government and the majority of voting citizens are very much anti-socialist. Almost any government assistance is labelled as communist, which ends up producing a population with a large portion of people below or near the poverty line. The lack of universal health care, lack of support for the payment of tertiary education leading to enormous (in the hundreds of thousands) student debt and a reduction in the difference in the tax rate tiers are just a couple of many examples of this.

It is in fact their blind following of a strong ideology, namely the constitution that leaves them susceptible. By ostracising anyone who seeks to question the "ideology" that the constitution perpetuates, you can control the population. It doesn't even have to be written in the constitution, as it isn't a logical position based on knowledge. Most people wouldn't actually know what is in the constitution apart from a few of the amendments.

By uniting a poor people under the great document that will lead to their prosperity (the great American dream), you can have a very obedient population that accept the reduction of their liberties, representing very well through the patriot act as well as the examples you mentioned in the TSA, warrantless wiretaps, no fly lists, etc. It doesn't matter that some of these things actually conflict with what is written in the constitution and amendments, it is under the blind following of the ideology that it represents which has lead to the lack of liberty.

Socialism doesn't lead to fascism. However it, like the US constitution, can be used as the focal ideology to institute a nationalist culture, not that this is what is happening in the US.

Look, this all sounds nice until you look at the facts;

1. 46 million US citizens are on food stamps, these people are dependent on their government to live.
2. The huge transfer and indeed government tax concessions to aid the transfer off-shore of manufacturing industries and as  such jobs.
3. The destruction of the middle class by way of their reals estate property value horror.
4. Big Brother government.
5. Only 47% of the US labour force actually pays any income tax, again, the middle class bearing the burden.
6. Which leads to the destruction of the middle class.
7. Which leads to an explosion in the lower class, and yet further people becoming dependent on government assistance.
8. Bails out's of big business, GM, Chrysler, Major Commercial banks et al. The merger of State and corporates does lead to repression.
9. Trillions of dollars in QE, the federal reserve is now the biggest holder of US debt.

Yet, you claim that that the US government and citizens are anti socialist? This is all happening now, has been happening for the past 20 years. This is the road to socialism, this is how you destroy the middle class. Do it by increments, normalization over time. This is an entitlement nation, end of story, it's over, no way back

Don't bother listening to what they say, look at what they do. Obama is a full blown socialist. Congress is a rubber stamp, that is all.

Let me ask you something, would you as an AU citizen, line up at airports to have your children Radiated, or physically searched? Would you allow the government to tap your communication lines without lawful consent? Would you allow our government to put names on list as potential insurgents merely because people share a different view?

That document they call a constitution was created to provide a framework of liberty and personal freedom, it has been ripped up and trampled on, and what did the people do....NOTHING. From here on it will get worse, and what will the people do....NOTHING, welcome to repression, welcome to socialsim, because when you are dependent on the system you are a prisoner, you WILL obey.

US citizens are becoming more and more dependent on their government, Big Borther, Big Sis, entitlement spending, food stamps, welfare, this is the road to socialism, look at what they do, not what they say.

You people seem confused with regard to the outcome concept, allow me to clarify;

Socialism, communism, fascism, national socialsim, whatever..the state becomes the focus, not the individual, and as such individual freedom and liberties are suppressed. Now the state can achieve this with a velvet glove over time (make you safer), or with a black boot, the outcome is the same.

[incog43]

Monty maybe you should change the following,

Adminstrator > GOD
Veteran coach > Hitler
exper coach > Saddam
Other coaches > Bin Laden
All position coaches > SS Nazi
Boot studder > Jew

If the above is taken as racist and i apologise accordingly.




KORZA

Why dont you stop reading the thread if it does not interest you moron :)

[Ziplock]

Monty maybe you should change the following,

Adminstrator > GOD
Veteran coach > Hitler
exper coach > Saddam
Other coaches > Bin Laden
All position coaches > SS Nazi
Boot studder > Jew

If the above is taken as racist and i apologise accordingly.


KORZA

I appreciated it :P

[Bluke]

I agree that the US is a good candidate to transition into a fascist nation, but I very much disagree with what you identify as the catalyst.

For a start, to claim the US government is embracing socialism is a joke. The US government and the majority of voting citizens are very much anti-socialist. Almost any government assistance is labelled as communist, which ends up producing a population with a large portion of people below or near the poverty line. The lack of universal health care, lack of support for the payment of tertiary education leading to enormous (in the hundreds of thousands) student debt and a reduction in the difference in the tax rate tiers are just a couple of many examples of this.

It is in fact their blind following of a strong ideology, namely the constitution that leaves them susceptible. By ostracising anyone who seeks to question the "ideology" that the constitution perpetuates, you can control the population. It doesn't even have to be written in the constitution, as it isn't a logical position based on knowledge. Most people wouldn't actually know what is in the constitution apart from a few of the amendments.

By uniting a poor people under the great document that will lead to their prosperity (the great American dream), you can have a very obedient population that accept the reduction of their liberties, representing very well through the patriot act as well as the examples you mentioned in the TSA, warrantless wiretaps, no fly lists, etc. It doesn't matter that some of these things actually conflict with what is written in the constitution and amendments, it is under the blind following of the ideology that it represents which has lead to the lack of liberty.

Socialism doesn't lead to fascism. However it, like the US constitution, can be used as the focal ideology to institute a nationalist culture, not that this is what is happening in the US.

Look, this all sounds nice until you look at the facts;

1. 46 million US citizens are on food stamps, these people are dependent on their government to live.
2. The huge transfer and indeed government tax concessions to aid the transfer off-shore of manufacturing industries and as  such jobs.
3. The destruction of the middle class by way of their reals estate property value horror.
4. Big Brother government.
5. Only 47% of the US labour force actually pays any income tax, again, the middle class bearing the burden.
6. Which leads to the destruction of the middle class.
7. Which leads to an explosion in the lower class, and yet further people becoming dependent on government assistance.
8. Bails out's of big business, GM, Chrysler, Major Commercial banks et al. The merger of State and corporates does lead to repression.
9. Trillions of dollars in QE, the federal reserve is now the biggest holder of US debt.

Yet, you claim that that the US government and citizens are anti socialist? This is all happening now, has been happening for the past 20 years. This is the road to socialism, this is how you destroy the middle class. Do it by increments, normalization over time. This is an entitlement nation, end of story, it's over, no way back

Don't bother listening to what they say, look at what they do. Obama is a full blown socialist. Congress is a rubber stamp, that is all.

Let me ask you something, would you as an AU citizen, line up at airports to have your children Radiated, or physically searched? Would you allow the government to tap your communication lines without lawful consent? Would you allow our government to put names on list as potential insurgents merely because people share a different view?

That document they call a constitution was created to provide a framework of liberty and personal freedom, it has been ripped up and trampled on, and what did the people do....NOTHING. From here on it will get worse, and what will the people do....NOTHING, welcome to repression, welcome to socialsim, because when you are dependent on the system you are a prisoner, you WILL obey.

US citizens are becoming more and more dependent on their government, Big Borther, Big Sis, entitlement spending, food stamps, welfare, this is the road to socialism, look at what they do, not what they say.

You people seem confused with regard to the outcome concept, allow me to clarify;

Socialism, communism, fascism, national socialsim, whatever..the state becomes the focus, not the individual, and as such individual freedom and liberties are suppressed. Now the state can achieve this with a velvet glove over time (make you safer), or with a black boot, the outcome is the same.

A few points.

In regards to the ontological debate 'process versus outcomes,' once more I dispute your claim that outcomes are primary. Obviously both are intrinsic, and you cannot truly understand one without the other. It's like showing a chicken and an egg to 2 year old and telling them the egg becomes the chicken, they may accept that as truth, but they do not understand it. Thus, if we teach the 2 year old the process of 'how' the egg becomes the chicken (by hatching), they can understand the process, enabling them to better understand and more importantly identify when the process is occurring.

This is for instance how we recognise that Hugo Chavez is a left leaning socialist. Because we know that the policies (process) that he implements lead to socialism (outcome). Hugo Chavez is a 'full blown socialist,' his nationalisation of the Venezuelan Oil industry is a real example of a dramatic shift towards socialism (not health care reform).

Both are intrinsic, neither can be disregarded. Without understand the process, how do we implement change to reverse the outcome?

Secondly, you cannot disregard the importance of Mills' 'harm principle' as integral to liberty even more so that 'freedom of speech' and 'private property.' Mills' harm principle postulates  that the actions of individuals should only be limited to prevent harm to other individuals.

You have to recognise that in the wake of 9/11, Bali, 7/7, Madrid, Mumbai and the rise of transnational terrorism that governments have a responsibility to protect their citizens. I do not agree that legislation like the Patriot Act, rendition or 'robust interrogation' are an appropriate response to transnational terrorism. However, I do believe that more pragmatic measures like increased airport security do provide a measure of safety for air travellers etc. As do more centralised security agencies such as Home Land Security. One of the revelations to come out of 9/11 was the massive intelligence failure on behalf of the CIA/NSA/FBI. That attack theoretically could have been prevented if those agencies had simply cooperated a little more. Unfortunately the nature of government agencies means that they are continually competing for funding, publicity etc. 9/11 helped to expose that culture.

Furthermore, you have to accept that the post-9/11 US was always going to undergo a rapid shift towards a more securitized state. The symbolism of the 9/11 attacks was undeniable, Al Qaeda hit the economic and military heart of America and very nearly struck the political heart. Al Qaeda exposed the weak underbelly of the US and invoked fear, uncertainty and anomie amongst the population. Even if you disregard the 3000+ death toll, the very nature of an attack occurring on US soil was always going to scar Americans psychologically. You may call it a shift towards fascism/socialism/whatever but the transparency, accountability and checks and balances of the US system mean that while there may be a shift towards one side of politics, it is usually followed by a shift back towards the other side.

Clinton    ->     Bush      ->  Obama
Democrat ->   NeoCon  -> Democrat
Liberal     ->     Realist     -> Liberal

I dispute your claim that Obama is a 'full blown' socialist. No socialist would ever claim Obama as one of their own. Bank bail outs were to save the US CAPTIALIST financial system from collapse. The medicare reforms were to prevent a full blown collapse of a dying health care system. My partner lived in the US for 8 years and their health care system was great if you had the money, and disgusting if you didn't. Fortunately for her, her dad had a good job and with good health cover. Not so fortunate are many others.

Your statistical evidence points to one thing only Incognito, that the US is in recession, that the government is fighting that recession as best it can while also implementing a reform regime. 46 million people on food stamps only evidences the ever growing income disparity gap in the US, which is wider than in East Timor, an income disparity gap that is the result of capitalism, not socialist policies. The US barely resembles a socialist regime, it is simply trying to protect its capitalist foundations.

Such rash claims like 'Obama is a full blown socialist' only serve to undermine your argument because he is quite clearly a libertarian and was a civil rights lawyer before being president. Are you not also a civil libertarian? In fact if I didnt know better, I would say you are employing many of the arguments of the far right 'Tea Party,' and their conservative policies are far from your libertarian underpinnings.

One thing is for certain however, the US is most certainly not the ideal type case study for this discussion. There are a number of inherent problems with the US political system.

When discussing modern theories of the state, we must remember that there are never true examples of democracy, socialism, fascism. There are degrees of truth and degrees of semblance and the anarchic nature of nation-states and the international system demands that they constantly change and evolve.   For better, or for worse.


Sorry about the extreme length of this post, I just had a lot to say.

[Bluke]

This is one of the best debates ever at this website - but it ain't footy! It should be in the bar over a beer, not in feedback, but I can't move it!

First, how it concerns me ...

Others (Fenno eg.) already pointed out that I have no banning power,and, for dwite's info, I don't even know who Luke Adams is, let alone make any comment.

Second, on some history, and what little I know ...

As I understand it, the German population had no idea what was necessary, so it seems unfair to blame them. As others pointed out, they were very oppressed by the reparations (which were OTT),following the First WW.

Bluke has answered most of incog's arguments extremely well. I recognise Bluke's political and philosophical education - onya Bluke! I agree that there is no necessity for evil in this world!

I would also like to recognise incog's naive revolutionary approach - I see myself in the mirror! I would like to also acknowledge his humour ... "Five me liberty or give me death!"

While a winning strategy, I challenge incog's argument that "It is only the outcome that matters" - this rejects morals, and is very much the Machiavellian approach. Maybe you mean it is only the INCOME that matters?

I challenge anyone to produce a solid example of Prospector trivialising millions of deaths. Please produce in full, and in context!

I like this one from Talsiman "If you are certain that someone will take offence to a statement, in my humble opinion, that statement no longer falls under the guise of freedom of speech, instead it is simply a mean/nasty (take you pick) comment. That does not amount to heathly debate, but rather humiliation &/or hurt feelings. So the question must then be: why make that comment when no positivity, only hurt, will come of it?"

That, I think, shows some true compassion - more power to you, Talsiman!

I too love a good debate, and this has all the hallmarks of a beauty!

Let's not stop now ...

BTW, what happened to the Original Poster?

Just wanted to clarify what you mean there Pros? In regards to what was necissary?

[Prospector_1]

incog spoke of the German people being too scared to do "what was necessary" to stop the rise of Hitler and the Nazi state. I simply say they likely had no idea of what to do.

[Prospector_1]

Oh, and IIRC, numberwang became Bazinga ...

[Bluke]

Many were scared and didn't know what to do. Many were scared and did know what to do (there were many home grown assassination attempts on Hitler). Many more however were well aware of what was happening and were complicit, and even helped facilitate it.

I believe the Milgram experiments tell us a great deal about individual reactions to authority. You have to remember that racism was endemic prior to WW2, Jews were persecuted everywhere, as were blacks, Aboriginals and Native Americans. The endemic and embedded racist mentality prevalent in Nazi Germany was not unique, however, the regimes 'solutions' for dealing with it were, and were a direct result of the hardships suffered by the German people post WW1 and Great Depression. Those attrocities can be blamed on ressentiment ideologies, advanced by the Nazi party and embraced by the German people.

[hawk_88]

The facts you provided don't demonstrate the US's attitude to socialism nor do they demonstrate how they got to where they are today. You can't simply say the outcome is reliance on social welfare, therefore the current social state of the US is do to socialism. What you are failing to see is why there is extreme poverty and reliance on welfare. It have been caused by long term resistance to any form of social welfare or regulation on the free market, all of that being labelled communism.

That has led to the collapse of the real estate market, and hence the Banks which lead to the GFC, as well as the steady increase in the divide between the rich and the poor. It isn't socialism that has lead to this but direct opposition to it.

It isn't reliance on the state that leads to a fascist state. The population aren't coerced. It is a hearts and minds thing, you appeal to their situation.

"The reason you struggle to provide food for you families is because illegal immigrants taking your jobs."

"These people attack us and seek to take away your freedoms"

You create a central ideology and generally a common enemy and unite the people under the banner of the state against that enemy, "for the good of the people", which very quickly becomes "for the good of the nation".


To claim that Congress is simply a rubber stamp is a very uniformed statement. Obama relies on two independents for a majority of one in the senate. The house of reps is controlled by the Republicans by almost a 2/3 majority and recently a disagreement over the budget almost lead to a shutdown of the government. Obama is struggling to get anything through.

Your statistical evidence points to one thing only Incognito, that the US is in recession, that the government is fighting that recession as best it can while also implementing a reform regime. 46 million people on food stamps only evidences the ever growing income disparity gap in the US, which is wider than in East Timor, an income disparity gap that is the result of capitalism, not socialist policies. The US barely resembles a socialist regime, it is simply trying to protect its capitalist foundations.

Such rash claims like 'Obama is a full blown socialist' only serve to undermine your argument because he is quite clearly a libertarian and was a civil rights lawyer before being president. Are you not also a civil libertarian? In fact if I didnt know better, I would say you are employing many of the arguments of the far right 'Tea Party,' and their conservative policies are far from your libertarian underpinnings.

Totally agree. The major issue with the American government at the moment is the huge amount of influence private enterprise has on policy. There are significant movements in many states to have corporations stripped of the rights of an individual, and I believe one already has passed such a law but I cannot recall which one of the top of my head.

When discussing modern theories of the state, we must remember that there are never true examples of democracy, socialism, fascism. There are degrees of truth and degrees of semblance and the anarchic nature of nation-states and the international system demands that they constantly change and evolve.   For better, or for worse.

Again with you here as well (not that I agree with everything, not with you on the airport security). It is far to simplistic to give a political system a label and blame everything on that label. The Australian Labor Party is a member Socialist International, and would support Social Democracy (sometimes called Democratic Socialism but that is often rejected as meaning something different, see the issues with labels?).

Many nations that would fall under the socialism banner are some of the best countries economically, have very high quality of living, good distribution of wealth, good human rights records and for what it is worth, have a high rating on the national happiness scale (however the hell they work that out). To simply say Socialism is bad and the pathway to fascism is at best simplistic and and worst ignorant.

[hawk_88]

The facts you provided don't demonstrate the US's attitude to socialism nor do they demonstrate how they got to where they are today. You can't simply say the outcome is reliance on social welfare, therefore the current social state of the US is do to socialism. What you are failing to see is why there is extreme poverty and reliance on welfare. It have been caused by long term resistance to any form of social welfare or regulation on the free market, all of that being labelled communism.

That has led to the collapse of the real estate market, and hence the Banks which lead to the GFC, as well as the steady increase in the divide between the rich and the poor. It isn't socialism that has lead to this but direct opposition to it.

It isn't reliance on the state that leads to a fascist state. The population aren't coerced. It is a hearts and minds thing, you appeal to their situation.

"The reason you struggle to provide food for you families is because illegal immigrants taking your jobs."

"These people attack us and seek to take away your freedoms"

You create a central ideology and generally a common enemy and unite the people under the banner of the state against that enemy, "for the good of the people", which very quickly becomes "for the good of the nation".


To claim that Congress is simply a rubber stamp is a very uniformed statement. Obama relies on two independents for a majority of one in the senate. The house of reps is controlled by the Republicans by almost a 2/3 majority and recently a disagreement over the budget almost lead to a shutdown of the government. Obama is struggling to get anything through.

Your statistical evidence points to one thing only Incognito, that the US is in recession, that the government is fighting that recession as best it can while also implementing a reform regime. 46 million people on food stamps only evidences the ever growing income disparity gap in the US, which is wider than in East Timor, an income disparity gap that is the result of capitalism, not socialist policies. The US barely resembles a socialist regime, it is simply trying to protect its capitalist foundations.

Such rash claims like 'Obama is a full blown socialist' only serve to undermine your argument because he is quite clearly a libertarian and was a civil rights lawyer before being president. Are you not also a civil libertarian? In fact if I didnt know better, I would say you are employing many of the arguments of the far right 'Tea Party,' and their conservative policies are far from your libertarian underpinnings.

Totally agree. The major issue with the American government at the moment is the huge amount of influence private enterprise has on policy. There are significant movements in many states to have corporations stripped of the rights of an individual, and I believe one already has passed such a law but I cannot recall which one of the top of my head.

When discussing modern theories of the state, we must remember that there are never true examples of democracy, socialism, fascism. There are degrees of truth and degrees of semblance and the anarchic nature of nation-states and the international system demands that they constantly change and evolve.   For better, or for worse.

Again with you here as well (not that I agree with everything, not with you on the airport security). It is far to simplistic to give a political system a label and blame everything on that label. The Australian Labor Party is a member Socialist International, and would support Social Democracy (sometimes called Democratic Socialism but that is often rejected as meaning something different, see the issues with labels?).

Many nations that would fall under the socialism banner are some of the best countries economically, have very high quality of living, good distribution of wealth, good human rights records and for what it is worth, have a high rating on the national happiness scale (however the hell they work that out). To simply say Socialism is bad and the pathway to fascism is at best simplistic and and worst ignorant.

[Bluke]

Well every time I fly, I am glad when I get pulled aside for a bag inspection and an explosives swab. I'd much rather a small delay then being stuck on a plane with an impassioned jihadist.

I don't agree with profiling, but there has actually been a shift away from profiling in the security sector.

It actually doesn't work, you will never hear of terrorist boarding a plane wearing a robe with full face beard. He will carry a brief case, have slicked back hair and be clean shaven.

In regards to democracy and its different forms, 'deliberative democracy' is far superior to any other in my mind.