Milne - Best Small Forward

[wooly]

Plus as mentioned Milne will have more attention with Kosi in place of Roo, as defenders are less likely to leave their man (Milne) to help their teammate out.

"Less Likely", sure it's not very Likely, but he doesn't get more attention. Logically, you would think he would, but he doesn't. 1 Defender is all he gets Wooly. That's my view, and you have a different one. I still believe that point should be "against".

lol yes he does get more attention: more attention with Roo out than with Roo in; I never said he would face more than 1 defender. This is what make's playing the role of a small forward difficult: they are essentially tagged with the "tagger" pretty much knowing exactly what they are going to do (crumb and try and kick goals), but unlike midfielder's, small forward's don't have the opportunity to shake the tag by out lasting their tagger. So essentially what I'm saying is that with Roo in Milnes direct opponent (or "tagger") is more likely to leave Milne and go third man up, but with Roo out he is less likely to do this, hence why Milne recieves more attention.

At the moment (I agree) I reckon it stands: 3/4 in the "for" section (with point 1 being the one that doesn't count in my favour). I would argue that it's 7/8 (with point 6 being the one that doesn't count in my favour); which points do you feel are in your favour (or were not properly addressed by me?)

I said 5/8 not 7/8?

Re-read it. It says "I would argue that it's 7/8" (I probably should have said "I would argue that it's 7/8 not 5/8")

which points do you feel are in your favour

2,3,4,6 and 8

Completely against 4 and 8.

2) Yeah you're probably right with this one. As I said the only way to know is to be at the club; I would say that Milne is considered a leader now, but for the better of his career he has not been; and since this debate is about career's this point would go in your favour.

3) Not sure how this works in your favour? I agree with the point, but that debate is not about this. In my opinion it doesn't work in anyone's favour.

4) Don't recall reading a rebuttal for this point  :-\; if you don't refute it adequately (i.e. without logic or facts/figures) than how can this point be in your favour; if you do refute it then back it up with some logic and/or facts/figures. Keep in mind that we are talking about a small forward when you present your argument as I would agree that in most other position's this statement would hold true.

6) We agree so know argument here.

8 ) Like point 3, I'm not sure how this works in your favour. It is a mute point because we are talking about his career not a single season, but either way small forwards will rarely rank in the top 10 for anything in a single season!

So by my admittedly poor maths it's: 3/4 "for" in my favour and (eliminating points 3 and 8 because they don't work either way, they are just facts) it is 4/6 (I think ???) "against" in my favour meaning 7/10 in my favour overrall.

[Master Q]

lol yes he does get more attention: more attention with Roo out than with Roo in; I never said he would face more than 1 defender. This is what make's playing the role of a small forward difficult: they are essentially tagged with the "tagger" pretty much knowing exactly what they are going to do (crumb and try and kick goals), but unlike midfielder's, small forward's don't have the opportunity to shake the tag by out lasting their tagger. So essentially what I'm saying is that with Roo in Milnes direct opponent (or "tagger") is more likely to leave Milne and go third man up, but with Roo out he is less likely to do this, hence why Milne recieves more attention.

Disagreed. - My Final Answer. Disagreed.
----------------------
3) - How doesn't it work in our favour, the best small forwards grow out of their position, Milne hasn't?

4) You got to be kidding me?

"back it up with some logic and/or facts/figures."
I'll go for the logic option, Eddie.

A Small Forward who kicks goals and adds defensive pressure is better then a Small Forward who kicks 1-2 More goals, but doesn't apply as much defensive pressure, or anywhere near as much.

8) Do you recall my original post about it? I think It was something about it doesn't matter if anyother small forward isn't in it.

I think if he was "amazing" he would be in it. But I think we should call that argument a "draw". Agreed?


So, it's 2/3 in "for". Meaning 1 to "us". Then for against, 4/6 to us, leaving you with 2. Meaning that you are on 4, and we are on 5.

[wooly]

lol yes he does get more attention: more attention with Roo out than with Roo in; I never said he would face more than 1 defender. This is what make's playing the role of a small forward difficult: they are essentially tagged with the "tagger" pretty much knowing exactly what they are going to do (crumb and try and kick goals), but unlike midfielder's, small forward's don't have the opportunity to shake the tag by out lasting their tagger. So essentially what I'm saying is that with Roo in Milnes direct opponent (or "tagger") is more likely to leave Milne and go third man up, but with Roo out he is less likely to do this, hence why Milne recieves more attention.

Disagreed. - My Final Answer. Disagreed.

Nice rebuttal lol.

3) - How doesn't it work in our favour, the best small forwards grow out of their position, Milne hasn't?

I'm not sure what I have to say to make you understand: I agree but THAT IS NOT WHAT THE DISCUSSION IS ABOUT.

4) You got to be kidding me?

"back it up with some logic and/or facts/figures."
I'll go for the logic option, Eddie.

A Small Forward who kicks goals and adds defensive pressure is better then a Small Forward who kicks 1-2 More goals, but doesn't apply as much defensive pressure, or anywhere near as much.

lol agreed. Now name a small forward (other than Rioli as we have agreed that he meets this) that does that?

8) Do you recall my original post about it? I think It was something about it doesn't matter if anyother small forward isn't in it.

I think if he was "amazing" he would be in it. But I think we should call that argument a "draw". Agreed?

I don't recall the original post but why wouldn't it matter if another small forward isn't in it? That's what the discussion is about small forwards; comparing Milne to other small forwards hence the question name someone better (based on the criteria). But I will settle with a "draw".

So, it's 2/3 in "for". Meaning 1 to "us". Then for against, 4/6 to us, leaving you with 2. Meaning that you are on 4, and we are on 5.

Why 2/3? Which point are you eliminating (and why) and which point are you saying works in your favour? I'm assuming by my estimation:

1) - Your favour
2) - My favour (due to no rebuttal)
3) - My favour (due to no rebuttal)
4) - My favour (due to no rebuttal - you simply said that you "disagree") - I'm assuming this is the point you are leaving out? Just because we disagree doesn't mean it should be left out. I believe I have logically argued my view and you have simply stated that you disagree.

So that's 3 for me, 1 for you.

How did you get 4/6 to you?

1) - My favour
2) - Your favour
3) - Neither (eliminated)
4) - My favour (pending your reply to the question above)
5) - My favour (unless you can answer the question - Rioli is already counted)
6) - Your favour
7) - My favour
8, 9) - Neither (eliminated)

I count 4 for me, 2 to you and 3 elimated.

Total: 7 (or 6 if you're really upset by point 4 in the "for" section) for me, 3 for you.

[Justin Bieber]

Now I have to reread everything again ;D.

Good Old Fashion Debate :D.

[wooly]

Now I have to reread everything again ;D.

Good Old Fashion Debate :D.

Sorry HP. We are pretty much "re-debating" points to see whose favour it is in.

[Master Q]

3) - How doesn't it work in our favour, the best small forwards grow out of their position, Milne hasn't?

"I'm not sure what I have to say to make you understand: I agree but THAT IS NOT WHAT THE DISCUSSION IS ABOUT."

wooly a small forward who fits in your criteria would be horrible to others in this case :-\

lol agreed. Now name a small forward (other than Rioli as we have agreed that he meets this) that does that?

Would it make a difference. Rioli is better in this part of the debate, Point to us. Can't complain.

I'm assuming this is the point you are leaving out? Just because we disagree doesn't mean it should be left out. I believe I have logically argued my view and you have simply stated that you disagree

It's not that I'm always disagreeing. I STILL think it should be in the against, that's why I left it out. 2/3.

4) - My favour (pending your reply to the question above)

Already gave my answer, have a not one bit of an idea how it's in your favor.

[wooly]

3) - How doesn't it work in our favour, the best small forwards grow out of their position, Milne hasn't?

"I'm not sure what I have to say to make you understand: I agree but THAT IS NOT WHAT THE DISCUSSION IS ABOUT."

wooly a small forward who fits in your criteria would be horrible to others in this case :-\

(lol I'm curious as to why you waited until now to make that statement?)

lol never said a small forward that fitted the criteria wouldn't be horrible, although I would find it hard for you to explain how averaging 2 goals a game is horrible. I'll break this down for you:

I placed 2 criteria in the question: under 6ft and entire career forward. (Note that this criteria was also used by Jon Anderson in his article)

Reasons for the criteria:

Under 6ft: There obviously needed to be a height resrtiction and I would deem players <6ft as small. I don't think you have an issue with this though.

Entire career forward: This is obviously the criteria you take issue with. Now, as I have said the question is not pick the greatest team of all time. If it was than Milne wouldn't even come into consideration. But that was not the question. The question was about small forwards, key word: small and forwards, hence the criteria. I would classify a forward as someone who plays in the forward 50 (fair definition?). Therefore when talking about small forwards, someone like Leigh Matthews or Kevin Bartlett cannot be counted as they did not play the majority of their careers as forwards.

I asked for your answer to the question based on the criteria I gave you. Now I understand that it is an odd question, but that is the question I asked you to answer. And again, why wait until now to make that statement?

lol agreed. Now name a small forward (other than Rioli as we have agreed that he meets this) that does that?

Would it make a difference. Rioli is better in this part of the debate, Point to us. Can't complain.

lol yes. I had already acknowledged that Rioli is likely to be better along with Brad Johnson, making Milne third overall. Third overall would classify him as one of the best small forwards I would have thought? If he was 5th or 6th then probably not, hence why I asked you to name others!!

4) - My favour (pending your reply to the question above)

Already gave my answer, have a not one bit of an idea how it's in your favor.

See above.

I'm assuming this is the point you are leaving out? Just because we disagree doesn't mean it should be left out. I believe I have logically argued my view and you have simply stated that you disagree

It's not that I'm always disagreeing. I STILL think it should be in the against, that's why I left it out. 2/3.

lol you haven't put a logical or factual argument forward! If you think it should be in the against than explain why!!! I can't "give" you the point or call it a "draw" if you simply say "Disagreed. - My Final Answer. Disagreed."

Here's a look back at the arguments relating to this topic. Please point out where you present a logical or factual argument:

Your comment:

Roo = Super Super Main Target.

Milne/Kosi = Next Target.

My response: "So with Roo out, how would opposing teams plan on defending the Saints forwards? Milne gets alot more attention, making his stats mentioned above all the more impressive"

Your response:

wooly that statement is saying Milne isn't one of the greats.

"Milne Gets A Lot More Attention"

All the greats surely must be able to handle attention, plus, most of the time, It's 1 Defender!

My response: "How is that statement saying Milne isn't one of the greats?! It is simply pointing out the obvious that with Roo out he gets more attention, not that he can't handle it. The fact that his stats improved with increased attention means he was able to handle the extra attention!!! So please explain to me again how that comment is saying Milne isn't one of the greats?!"

No reponse from you to that comment.

Later. Comment from you:

Quote

    4) With Riewoldt out, Milne stepped up and improved his game:

    Milne’s stats 2009 up to Rn12 compared to 2010 Rn12:

    Disposals:
    09: 127
    10: 193

    Marks:
    09: 44
    10: 56

    Goals:
    09: 21
    10: 30

    This is despite added attention from opposition teams.

    (No rebuttal)



I think this should be used in the against section, but taking away the

"With Riewoldt out, Milne stepped up and improved his game:"

and replace it with:

"With Riewoldt Out, Milne has had more oppurtinites, making him look better stat wise, on paper.

and remove the
"This is despite added attention from opposition teams."

My response: "I probably didn't put enough information in there, although I still disagree that Milne had more opportunities. If he was a tall marking forward (like Kosi) then yes I would agree that he would have more opportunities, but he's not; he's a small crumbing forward so with Roo it doesn't directly affect him (i.e. give him more opportunities). I agree that Kosi (and the other forwards) take less marks than Roo, resulting in more ball hitting the ground for Milne to crumb (i.e. more opportunities) but how many more marks inside 50 would Roo take than Kosi et al.? 2 or 3? So that's 2 or 3 more opportunities for Milne to crumb; hardly seems like alot more opportunities. Plus as mentioned Milne will have more attention with Kosi in place of Roo, as defenders are less likely to leave their man (Milne) to help their teammate out.

How about I change it to read:

"With Riewoldt out, Milne was presented with more opportunities to improve his stats, however he also faced more attention from opposing team's defender's. Either way the stats prove that Milne has lifted his game in Riewoldt's absence." That sound ok? "

Your response:

"Less Likely", sure it's not very Likely, but he doesn't get more attention. Logically, you would think he would, but he doesn't. 1 Defender is all he gets Wooly. That's my view, and you have a different one. I still believe that point should be "against".

My response: "lol yes he does get more attention: more attention with Roo out than with Roo in; I never said he would face more than 1 defender. This is what make's playing the role of a small forward difficult: they are essentially tagged with the "tagger" pretty much knowing exactly what they are going to do (crumb and try and kick goals), but unlike midfielder's, small forward's don't have the opportunity to shake the tag by out lasting their tagger. So essentially what I'm saying is that with Roo in Milnes direct opponent (or "tagger") is more likely to leave Milne and go third man up, but with Roo out he is less likely to do this, hence why Milne recieves more attention."

Your response:

Disagreed. - My Final Answer. Disagreed.

I don't see much of an argument in there from you, so again: I can't "give" you the point or call it a "draw" until you provide some sort of logical/factual argument.

[Master Q]

I've could keep going but...

I've checked your criteria, many of the great small forwards don't fit in. But of course this is the discussion, Milne is defiantly one of the best Small forwards who fit in the criteria, but defiantly not one of the greats outside of the criteria.

In conclusion, he is one of the Best Small Forwards (In the criteria) but maybe the tittle should be changed to "Best Small Forward (Who Fits In The Criteria)

[wooly]

I've could keep going but...

I've checked your criteria, many of the great small forwards don't fit in. But of course this is the discussion, Milne is defiantly one of the best Small forwards who fit in the criteria, but defiantly not one of the greats outside of the criteria.

In conclusion, he is one of the Best Small Forwards (In the criteria) but maybe the tittle should be changed to "Best Small Forward (Who Fits In The Criteria)

I would love you to keep going, as I'm not sure what you can say, but I agree that this is becoming a bit trivial.

Thankyou for input and finally understanding the purpose of this discussion :).

Just out of curiosity who would you name as your top 5 small forwards of all time (no criteria :P - and therefore I of course don't expect Milne to be listed ;))

[ossie85]

St. Kilda played Collingwood and Hawthorn recently - two big games against teams expected to do well in the finals - and Milne didn't do a thing in either of those games.

Mark LeCras has now kicked more goals than Milne this year, and if a small-forward makes the All-Aus team this year, I'm betting on LeCras now.

[wooly]

St. Kilda played Collingwood and Hawthorn recently - two big games against teams expected to do well in the finals - and Milne didn't do a thing in either of those games.

Mark LeCras has now kicked more goals than Milne this year, and if a small-forward makes the All-Aus team this year, I'm betting on LeCras now.

I thought this topic was dead and buried. So rather than kick a dead horse, I'll only be leaving this comment.

I agree that he did nothing in the Collingwood game, however in the Hawthorn game, he did kick 2 goals in the last term with the game on the line.

As for LeCras (who also goes missing in big games), I would tend to agree that he is the front runner for All Australian, however as I mentioned earlier this discussion is about careers not single seasons. Based on that I would put LeCras in the Rioli category - likely to be better but too early to tell.

[ossie85]

Just poking you with a stick :)

I actually posted this before the last quarter had finished! So I ate some humble pie :)

[Justin Bieber]

Lol Ossie ;D. Poking a sleeping bear ;) ;) :P.

[Master Q]

*Wooly Walks In Room* *Swipes Match*

[wooly]

grrrrrrrr....

:P