Milne - Best Small Forward

[wooly]

Still not sold on his stats not completely changing :-\. Reckon it has effected his game.

What do you mean? Are you saying his stats should improve with Roo out?

It probably has changed his stats from previous years when alongside Roo. Doubt he hasn't changed a whole lot but reckon there has been a change.

Just saying Roo being out has to effect his game. Players are to adapt to their new roles without their leader leading from the front.

Not denying that it hasn't affected his game, just that to expect Milne's stats to significantly increase in Roo's absence seems strange (due to the reasons mentioned above).

A look a Milne’s stats 2009 up to Rn12 compared to 2010 Rn12:

Disposals:
09: 127
10: 193

Marks:
09: 44
10: 56

Goals:
09: 21
10: 30

Well in Roo's absence it appears his stats have improved, so my assumption that his stats would stay the same or decrease was wrong.

If anything though, this proves Milne has adapted his game and stepped up in Riewoldts absence; which is a sign of a good player.

[wooly]

Also, does everyone else agree that most of milne's goals are running into the goal square any one could kick except richo?

What?! Have you watched Milne play?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFj3yVEbNWs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gz6JsNxKHkg&feature=related

[Justin Bieber]

Guess he's adapted well!!! ;D.

Lets see if he can keep that up when Roo comes back in later in the year.

[wooly]

Roo = Super Super Main Target.

Milne/Kosi = Next Target.

So with Roo out, how would opposing teams plan on defending the Saints' forwards? Milne gets alot more attention, making his stats mentioned above all the more impressive.

Btw, I am still awaiting your answer on how Rioli's career will have surpassed Milne's by next year?

[wooly]

Guess he's adapted well!!! ;D.

Lets see if he can keep that up when Roo comes back in later in the year.

Yep it'll be a challenge for him!

[Master Q]

Roo = Super Super Main Target.

Milne/Kosi = Next Target.

So with Roo out, how would opposing teams plan on defending the Saints' forwards? Milne gets alot more attention, making his stats mentioned above all the more impressive.

Btw, I am still awaiting your answer on how Rioli's career will have surpassed Milne's by next year?

wooly that statement is saying Milne isn't one of the greats.

"Milne Gets A Lot More Attention"

All the greats surely must be able to handle attention, plus, most of the time, It's 1 Defender!
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I am still awaiting your answer on how Rioli's career will have surpassed Milne's by next year?

There isn't a real stat to back this up, however I could say Rioli is already better, but I can't because he hasn't played a lot of games, so we don't know if he could keep this up. But, if he keeps up his Goal kicking, Contestant Marks, Run Downs, Defensive Pressure, Assists, Tackling I'm confident he will be better then Milne's.

[wooly]

wooly that statement is saying Milne isn't one of the greats.

"Milne Gets A Lot More Attention"

All the greats surely must be able to handle attention, plus, most of the time, It's 1 Defender!

How is that statement saying Milne isn't one of the greats?! It is simply pointing out the obvious that with Roo out he gets more attention, not that he can't handle it. The fact that his stats improved with increased attention means he was able to handle the extra attention!!! So please explain to me again how that comment is saying Milne isn't one of the greats?!

There isn't a real stat to back this up, however I could say Rioli is already better, but I can't because he hasn't played a lot of games, so we don't know if he could keep this up. But, if he keeps up his Goal kicking, Contestant Marks, Run Downs, Defensive Pressure, Assists, Tackling I'm confident he will be better then Milne's.

I agree he has a good chance to have a better career than Milne, but he will not have surpassed him by next year like you suggested.

[Master Q]

You Said It In A Way That It Sounded Tough :-\

[wooly]

You Said It In A Way That It Sounded Tough :-\

I didn't intend for it to come out that way, but I could see why you would have interpreted the way you did. I was saying that it does make Milnes role tougher, but If you read the full sentence I say that despite this tougher role his stats still improved: "Milne gets alot more attention, making his stats mentioned above all the more impressive".

[Master Q]

Alright. Is there anything more to debate about? I'm still not convinced, but do we have a conclusion?

[wooly]

Alright. Is there anything more to debate about? I'm still not convinced, but do we have a conclusion?

I'd more than happy to continue debating but it doesn't seem like there is much more to debate.

A summary for those who stumble across this post:

The Question: Name a player under 6ft (<183cm) who essentially played (or plays) their entire career as a small forward that had (or will have) a better career than Milne?

Please note that the criteria of the question and that the question is not: "pick any player in history to play in the forward pocket or as a small forward?".

Arguments for:

1) Only Matera and Farmer (and Johnson) compare to Milne in terms of consistency and logevity over their careers. Here are some facts and figures for you:

Davis*: 194 Games, 250 Goals (1.3 goals per game)
Medhurst*: 166 Games, 274 Goals (1.6 goals per game)
Farmer: 249 Games, 483 Goals (1.9 goals per game)
Matera: 179 Games, 389 Goals (2.2 goals per game)
Johnson*: 352 Games, 549 Goals (1.6 goals per game)
Milne*: 200 Games, 408 Goals (2.0 goals per game)

*Still playing

Milne is better than Medhurst and Davis due to goals per game; he will most likely beat out Matera for longevity (unfortunate that Matera's career was cut short by injury); and he will most likely finish his career with more games and goals then Farmer. Johnson is the only player on that list that has (and most likely will have) a better career than Milne.

(No rebuttal)

2) Leigh Matthews quotes:

"Averaging two goals a game as a permanent small forward is a very good return"

"His best and worst are often a long way apart, but he plays a difficult position extremely well"

"getting nine inside-50 marks - now that is something right out of the box, which is very much a one-off"

Source: http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/208/newsid/95798/default.aspx

(No rebuttal)

3) Jon Anderson: Ranked Milne 4th all-time behind Johnson, Farmer, and Matera (I have all explained why I think Milne will finish with a better career than Matera and Farmer, and I acknowledge that Johnson is better - discussed later)

Source: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/whos-the-best-small-forward/story-e6frf9jf-1225855799088

(No rebuttal)

4) With Riewoldt out, Milne stepped up and improved his game:

Milne’s stats 2009 up to Rn12 compared to 2010 Rn12:

Disposals:
09: 127
10: 193

Marks:
09: 44
10: 56

Goals:
09: 21
10: 30

This is despite added attention from opposition teams.

(No rebuttal)

Arguments against:

1) Never been named in an All Australian Team:

Rebutal: All Australian Teams do not pick players based on position (see Dane Swan '09 - named as a forward, Lake '09 - named in the back pocket, and numerous others) so that argument is flawed. Plus other small forwards (Davis, Medhurst, Matera, Farmer, etc) have only been named once in All Australian teams. Milne's career is not over meaning he still has a chance to make an All Australian Team. Besides All Australian Teams reward a player based on performance over one year, not an entire career which is what this disscusion is based around.

2) Not a leader of his club.

Rebuttal: I would certainly agree that for the better part of his career Milne has not been seen as a leader of his club. However under Ross Lyon I think he has developed leadership (along with numerous other things like consistency, but I'll stick with leadership). Of course the only way anyone could tell if Milne is/ is not a leader of his club is if we were actually at the club for an extended period of time to observe Milne's leaderhsip. The best thing we have to go off is public comments made by his coach, Ross Lyon:

"It’s a goal within the team parameters of leading, crumbing and pressuring. He’s a real team player and a real leader of the forward line."

"It is a special effort to play 200 games. For a small forward it is really tough, you try and identify the great ones like (Peter) Daicos, Brett Allison, (Darren) Bewick and (Phil) Matera. He certainly sits up around there somewhere."

"We value him internally, he’s got great character "

"He has stood up under real pressure. You can’t beat your critics, you can’t answer your critics, all you can do is persist and have some longevity in your career and keep producing, that is the ultimate revenge."

Source: http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/208/newsid/96015/default.aspx

Now before you say "he was just saying that to defend Milne" think about the position Lyon is in: His comments will be heard by everyone including Milne's teammates (and the players he mentioned). He therefore is unlikely to state something that is untrue and that his players will disagree with. Comments like the one's above are not made lightly.

3) The Best Small Forwards are to good for their roles as Small Forwards

Rebuttal: I agree and I'm not arguing that point, just asking the question: Name a player under 6ft (<183cm) who essentially played (or plays) their entire career as a small forward that had (or will have) a better career than Milne?

4) Other players (e.g. Rioli) chase and tackle more which is equally as important for a small forward as kicking goals.

Rebuttal: Although I acknowledge that those things are important, I believe that they come second to kicking goals when measuring a small forwards ability. I'll break down why I think kicking goals is the most important role of the small forward (and why they are the best measure of their success/failure). The goal of football is to win, and you win by outscoring the opposition, therefore the two most important things in football are: 1) Scoring (goals) 2) stopping the opposition from scoring. Each member (position) in the team plays a role: Backs stop the opposition from scoring (duh!), midfielders work both ways (duh!) and forwards score (duh!). Now you mentioned there are forwards whose roles are to prevent the other team scoring, by stopping the opposition generating run off half back - which is where most goals are set-up from. While I agree this is important, it is no good stopping a team from scoring if you can't score yourself, hence why I say goals are the most important measure of a small forwards success (and why a goal scoring small forward is more important than a defensive tagging small forward).

5) Milne's overall game is lacking

Rebuttal: I have explained in the post above why I consider goals a priority for small forwards (over other things) and while I agree his game overall is lacking somewhat, I challenge you to find a small forward that meets (or is likely to meet) his production and longevity, whilst still excelling at the other aspects of the game (leadership; 1 per centers - smothers, chasing tackling; etc). Plus it is not as though Milne does not do those things (but I agree not to the same extent as player's like Rioli).

6) Brad Johnson is a better small forward than Milne

Rebuttal: I agree, although the case could be argued that he's not a true small forward (i.e. crumb and kick sneaky goals), however he meets the criteria I set out so I don't have much choice but to agree.

7) Most of Milne's goals are running into the goal square any one could kick except richo

Rebuttal:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFj3yVEbNWs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gz6JsNxKHkg&feature=related

8 ) Looking at his stats, if he is such a champion you would think he'd be the top 10 for something this year.

Rebuttal: Yeah but we're not talking about a single year, we are talking about a playing career. Plus name a small forward that is ranked in the top 10 for something?

9) Cyril Rioli better than Milne:

Rebuttal: Too early to tell. If Rioli plays 200+ games, lifts his average goals per game to ~1.5 and maintains his tackling pressure (all very achievable goals) than there is no doubt he will have had a better career than Milne. It is likely to assume that he will meet those goals and therefore it could be concluded that he will most likely have a better career than Milne.

Conclusion:
Brad Johnson and Cyril Rioli (depending on how his career pans out) are likely to have better careers than Stephen Milne.

As you can see the majority of the arguments I posted were not refuted (instead new reasons were presented and new questions asked - to which I responded). Many opposing arguments lacked supporting evidence (logical reasoning or facts/figures) and seemed to stem purely from a hatered of Milne. Therefore although the primary purpose of this post was to convince people that Milne is one of the best small forwards of all time, I also hoped to show that, although you may not like a player, there is no reason not to respect what he has achieved. I hate Stephen Milne and I don't think he is great person, but as a footballer I respect him.

[wooly]

Record for longest post? lol

[Master Q]

Wooly I think the post Is a little bit lopped sided. (New Debate Point  :D )


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4) With Riewoldt out, Milne stepped up and improved his game:

Milne’s stats 2009 up to Rn12 compared to 2010 Rn12:

Disposals:
09: 127
10: 193

Marks:
09: 44
10: 56

Goals:
09: 21
10: 30

This is despite added attention from opposition teams.

(No rebuttal)

I think this should be used in the against section, but taking away the

"With Riewoldt out, Milne stepped up and improved his game:"

and replace it with:

"With Riewoldt Out, Milne has had more oppurtinites, making him look better stat wise, on paper.

and remove the
"This is despite added attention from opposition teams."
---------------------------------

In the against section, you give some of our points, but in a way turn them into the "for" section. Especially No.4.
I have No problem with your statements, but when it is others I think you just make the final answer your opinion.

No.8 Is a very neutral comment, you have to agree to despite no other small forwards are achieving.

--------------------------------
At the moment (Remember at the moment) it stands 2/3 to you in the for section, and I would say about 5/8 in the against section not counting No.9, as there isn't an answer yet.

[wooly]

Wooly I think the post Is a little bit lopped sided. (New Debate Point  :D )

I tried to post the majority of the good points made by both sides, but I'll edit it more after this post to make it 'fairer'.

4) With Riewoldt out, Milne stepped up and improved his game:

Milne’s stats 2009 up to Rn12 compared to 2010 Rn12:

Disposals:
09: 127
10: 193

Marks:
09: 44
10: 56

Goals:
09: 21
10: 30

This is despite added attention from opposition teams.

(No rebuttal)

I think this should be used in the against section, but taking away the

"With Riewoldt out, Milne stepped up and improved his game:"

and replace it with:

"With Riewoldt Out, Milne has had more oppurtinites, making him look better stat wise, on paper.

and remove the
"This is despite added attention from opposition teams."

I probably didn't put enough information in there, although I still disagree that Milne had more opportunities. If he was a tall marking forward (like Kosi) then yes I would agree that he would have more opportunities, but he's not; he's a small crumbing forward so with Roo it doesn't directly affect him (i.e. give him more opportunities). I agree that Kosi (and the other forwards) take less marks than Roo, resulting in more ball hitting the ground for Milne to crumb (i.e. more opportunities) but how many more marks inside 50 would Roo take than Kosi et al.? 2 or 3? So that's 2 or 3 more opportunities for Milne to crumb; hardly seems like alot more opportunities. Plus as mentioned Milne will have more attention with Kosi in place of Roo, as defenders are less likely to leave their man (Milne) to help their teammate out.

How about I change it to read:

"With Riewoldt out, Milne was presented with more opportunities to improve his stats, however he also faced more attention from opposing team's defender's. Either way the stats prove that Milne has lifted his game in Riewoldt's absence." That sound ok?

In the against section, you give some of our points, but in a way turn them into the "for" section. Especially No.4.
I have No problem with your statements, but when it is others I think you just make the final answer your opinion.

No.8 Is a very neutral comment, you have to agree to despite no other small forwards are achieving.

Of course the "against" section will sound like the "for" section because my rebuttals are in there. I will look through the posts again but I'm pretty sure most of the rebuttals I have put in where either not addressed by you (or others) or were poorly refuted. But I will go through again and post any counter arguments for my rebuttals that I find.

At the moment (Remember at the moment) it stands 2/3 to you in the for section, and I would say about 5/8 in the against section not counting No.9, as there isn't an answer yet.

At the moment (I agree) I reckon it stands: 3/4 in the "for" section (with point 1 being the one that doesn't count in my favour). I would argue that it's 7/8 (with point 6 being the one that doesn't count in my favour); which points do you feel are in your favour (or were not properly addressed by me?)

[Master Q]

Plus as mentioned Milne will have more attention with Kosi in place of Roo, as defenders are less likely to leave their man (Milne) to help their teammate out.

"Less Likely", sure it's not very Likely, but he doesn't get more attention. Logically, you would think he would, but he doesn't. 1 Defender is all he gets Wooly. That's my view, and you have a different one. I still believe that point should be "against".

At the moment (I agree) I reckon it stands: 3/4 in the "for" section (with point 1 being the one that doesn't count in my favour). I would argue that it's 7/8 (with point 6 being the one that doesn't count in my favour); which points do you feel are in your favour (or were not properly addressed by me?)

I said 5/8 not 7/8?

which points do you feel are in your favour

2,3,4,6 and 8

Completely against 4 and 8.