NBA Season 2016/17

[Holz]

So I guess the Lebron vs MJ talk dies down for another season.  ;D

How do people think the MJ, Pippen, Rodman era would've gone against 2 elite superstars and a couple of semi stars?  For example Ewing, Malone/Barkley, Payton, Majerle, or some other combo of players from the 90's to match KD, Curry, Klay and Dray.  Personally I still think MJ's team wins, but if you strung together the right combo they could be beat.  Guess I'm comparing Cavs/Warriors to Bulls/90's superteam...I'd say Pippen vs Kyrie and Love vs Rodman evens out.

Im not sure what people are talking about. Lebron was amazing this series its a team sport, but when you are talking greatest of all time your talking individuals.

The man went 34 12 10 1.5 1 on 56% shooting.

Id say this is Lebron's best ever finals series despite having won 3 rings. Clear Clear Finals MVP in my book despite how good KD and Curry where.

Jordan dropped 27 5 4 1.5 0 on 42% shooting in the equivalent year.

If your talking individual performances doesn't this tip the debate towards Lebron?


As much as i love Kyrie id give the edge to Pippen. Pippen still goes 16 8 5 while being an elite defender. Kyrie 29 4 4 but is still a liability on defense.

Rodman >>> Love

Love only turned up in the 2 blowouts. In the 3 competitive games he went 15 9 16. Even if you count the blow outs he only goes 16 11 1 on 38% FG!!! Again he is a defensive liability.

Rodman doesnt score but 8 15 3 is pretty insane and while Love is a defensive liability, Rodman is a DPOY.

Then lets look at the supporting cast.

TT: 6 6 3
Jr 12 2 0

v

Kukoc: 13 5 4
Longley: 12 4 2


So basically in summary take out Lebron and Jordan, then pretty much on the offensive end slight edge to cavs. The starters are better but the bench sucked. However on the defensive end the Bulls much much better. They have DPOY and All nba defense players and the cavs have liability.

and thats before you even turn to the opponent.

This was the 2nd best player in the planet, the reigning 2 time MVP (fair to call him a top 5 player) the probably DPOY and a all nba sniper.

The bulls opponent had Payton who is certainly a superstar but wasnt a top 5 player that year. Kemp was up there but again not a top 5 player. Schrempf was a star and all nba 3rd team.


so on the opponent side it was a downgrade on Durrant Curry to Payton Kemp but a decent amount. Kemp probably on par with Klay and then you add a DPOY type player who is also an all star.

a fair comparison would be if Jordan faced say.

Penny Hardaway, David Robinson, Reggie Miller Dikembe Mutombo

[RaisyDaisy]

Lebron: 8 finals for only 3 wins
Jordan: 6 finals for 6 wins

Jordan will always be the GOAT in my books, but it's all just personal opinion at the end of the day. Both are/were incredible and clear Top 2 of all time

[LaHug]

Lebron: 8 finals for only 3 wins
Jordan: 6 finals for 6 wins

I hate this stat because it doesn't provide context of the opponents, the teams the players were on, what stage of their careers, etc.

LeBron's Finals losses:
2007 vs. Spurs - Jordan would also lose that series against that team, especially at that age/career stage, with those team mates.
2011 vs. Dallas - Jordan wins that series in LeBron's position for sure.
2014 vs. Spurs - Very hard to say. Those Spurs were something special and Wade was no longer a star. Call it 50/50.
2015 vs. Warriors - Not only does Jordan also lose that series in those circumstances, I don't think he takes it to 7 like LeBron did.
2017 vs. Warriors - No chance Jordan, or anyone in NBA history, and maybe nobody in the future of the league either, could have won that series in LeBron's position.

Of course, that's all opinion too, but Jordan would probably only be 5 for 8 at best in LeBron's position. The only loss on LeBron's Finals resume that puts him in a bad light in the Jordan comparisons is against the Mavs.

Plus, making 8 finals is more impressive than making 6 finals, if we want to just look at number totals without context :P

[Holz]

Lebron: 8 finals for only 3 wins
Jordan: 6 finals for 6 wins

I hate this stat because it doesn't provide context of the opponents, the teams the players were on, what stage of their careers, etc.

LeBron's Finals losses:
2007 vs. Spurs - Jordan would also lose that series against that team, especially at that age/career stage, with those team mates.
2011 vs. Dallas - Jordan wins that series in LeBron's position for sure.
2014 vs. Spurs - Very hard to say. Those Spurs were something special and Wade was no longer a star. Call it 50/50.
2015 vs. Warriors - Not only does Jordan also lose that series in those circumstances, I don't think he takes it to 7 like LeBron did.
2017 vs. Warriors - No chance Jordan, or anyone in NBA history, and maybe nobody in the future of the league either, could have won that series in LeBron's position.

Of course, that's all opinion too, but Jordan would probably only be 5 for 8 at best in LeBron's position. The only loss on LeBron's Finals resume that puts him in a bad light in the Jordan comparisons is against the Mavs.

Plus, making 8 finals is more impressive than making 6 finals, if we want to just look at number totals without context :P

Totally agree with you.

Jordan wins 2011 thats true

Im not sure Jordan wins 2016 though and 2014 2013 even questionable. Id say replace Lebron with Jordan and your looking at between 2 to 4 championships. Im not sure he would even make all 8.

the 6-0 stat is the worst in basketball.

Jordan's east was tougher but his Finals opponents was far easier.

what if i changed it to

Jordan 13 playoffs to make 6 finals = 46%
Lebron 12 playoffs to make  8 finals = 67%

that way Jordan didnt even make the finals half the time, Lebron makes it 2/3 of the time.

I dont understand why Lebron is criticized for losing a final and Jordan gets away with not even making the final. In what world is losing in the semi's better then losing in the finals.

If Jordan made the finals in 95 and 89 and lost and was 6-2 would be consider that better or worse then 6-0?

[RaisyDaisy]

All those "assumptions" is exactly why this is the most pointless argument in NBA

You can compare stats until you're blue in the face but the fact of the matter is that it's always going to be a personal opinion. There is no formula, no way of ever coming up with an answer

No one is right or wrong

As for that stat, you might not like it but it says one thing - when he makes the final he wins, and at the end of the day he can only beat who was put in front of him

It's the same as comparing Pele and Messi, Leigh Matthews and GAJ and so forth. It's not plausible, so just appreciate everything they've done and love it :)

[LaHug]

For what it's worth, I have no idea who's the GOAT. I just don't like the 6-0 argument.

[Holz]

For what it's worth, I have no idea who's the GOAT. I just don't like the 6-0 argument.

thats it.

The difference in Jordan and Lebron fans is for Jordan fans Jordan is the GOAT and any person who says otherwise is wrong and stupid or a fanboy or whatever and that you can't even compare.

For Lebron fans sure some say they think they Lebron is the greatest of all time, but they dont go out and say Jordan isnt in the same class, how can you say Jordan. Jordan is a chocker.

Thats why i support Lebron.

I personally think Lebron will end up the greatest of all time on my list, but i can put a case for Jordan and also guys like Kareem, you could even argue Russell if you want.

Jordan fans typically are its only Jordan and degrade everyone else.

in regards to RDs comment with he can only beat whats in front of them, where is that argument for Lebron winning 8 ECFs and Jordan only winning 6. The double standards amongst Jordan fans drive me crazy. They poke every weakness of the challengers and only bring up Jordan's strengths.

[RaisyDaisy]

You're delusional Holz

Where did I ever say anything negative towards Lebron? I compared the 8 vs 6 to highlight a Jordan point, but didn't say it was a bad effort by Lebron

I said they are clearly the 2 greatest

Just because I think Jordan is the greatest, doesn't mean I think anything less of Lebron

They're both amazing, but because I grew up watching Jordan he will always be my number 1. It's a personal opinion, not a fact

[jvalles69]

what if i changed it to

Jordan 13 playoffs to make 6 finals = 46%
Lebron 12 playoffs to make  8 finals = 67%

that way Jordan didnt even make the finals half the time, Lebron makes it 2/3 of the time.

I dont understand why Lebron is criticized for losing a final and Jordan gets away with not even making the final. In what world is losing in the semi's better then losing in the finals.

If Jordan made the finals in 95 and 89 and lost and was 6-2 would be consider that better or worse then 6-0?

Can't forget the era Jordan came into, super power Celtics and Lakers, plus Detroit were becoming powerhouses too.  Jordan had to take a backseat to these vets.  When Lebron came into the league there was basically Lakers and Spurs and the rest of the league had been average for a few years before that.  MJ had to wait for his time, Lebron's time was instant.  Still enjoy watching both and what they do, both will be absolute legends of the game #1 and #2 in either order.

[Holz]

You're delusional Holz

Where did I ever say anything negative towards Lebron? I compared the 8 vs 6 to highlight a Jordan point, but didn't say it was a bad effort by Lebron

I said they are clearly the 2 greatest

Just because I think Jordan is the greatest, doesn't mean I think anything less of Lebron

They're both amazing, but because I grew up watching Jordan he will always be my number 1. It's a personal opinion, not a fact

I wasn't referring to you, I was talking about most Jordan fans, which gladly you aren't.

You actually have the qualities of a Lebron fan in that you have respect for both players.

What you are is a basketball fan who supported Jordan and believe is the greatest of all time in your opinion.

What I am is a basketball fan who supports Lebron and believe he may end up being the greatest of all time.

What i am talking about is people who weren't going for either the Cavs or the Warriors and took joy in watching Lebron lose and generally think the NBA is worse then it used to be and that the 80s 90s or whatever was the peak.

Sadly i believe you are the minority, even though everyone on here seems reasonable. There is a monster squad of lebron haters out there though.

your last line is the issue, most Jordan fans treat it like fact that Jordan is the greatest when it is really their opinion. There is a case for 4-5 players to be the greatest of all time, possibly even more

Kareem 6 rings, 2 decades of dominance, 6 MVPs, #1 scorer of all time
Bill Russell most rings
Jordan 6 rings and the eye test, #1 in certain advanced metrics
James will likely finish with 10+ finals, be leading most simple and advanced statistics measures, 4+ MVPS
Wilt - arguably most dominant player ever, crazy stat records

then how big a gap is it really to Duncan Shaq Magic etc..


all i know is i saw some all time greats battle it out this series.

[RaisyDaisy]

Yeah all valid points, but in regards to those others I just don't think you can measure their actually influence on the game in their period of time

In the 80's and 90's, the influence and presence Jordan had not just in basketball but world wide was nothing compared to the other guys you mentioned

Lebron is however on that level, but maybe because he has had Kobe and Stef/KD etc all in the same era as him is what makes his critics so much harder, where as when Jordan played yeah he had Magic etc around but he was clearly better than all of them even though they were that good

Lebron is in the same era with some other GOAT contenders, where as Jordan probably didn't have as much competition, so that makes his greatness stand out more for those who argue for him without them even realising it

[Holz]

Yeah all valid points, but in regards to those others I just don't think you can measure their actually influence on the game in their period of time

In the 80's and 90's, the influence and presence Jordan had not just in basketball but world wide was nothing compared to the other guys you mentioned

Lebron is however on that level, but maybe because he has had Kobe and Stef/KD etc all in the same era as him is what makes his critics so much harder, where as when Jordan played yeah he had Magic etc around but he was clearly better than all of them even though they were that good

Lebron is in the same era with some other GOAT contenders, where as Jordan probably didn't have as much competition, so that makes his greatness stand out more for those who argue for him without them even realising it

You are correct if you want to look at the legends

in time order

Russell: late 50s and 60s
Wilt: 60s

Kareem: 70s and early 80s
Bird: Early to mid 80s
Magic: 80s

Jordan: late 80s and 90s

Shaq: late 90s to mid 00s
Kobe: 00s
Duncan: late 90s to early 00s
Lebron: mid 00s onwards

KD? 00s

Lebron is kinda coming in at the back end of Kobe Duncan Shaq aswell. Duncan helped by Leonard (who isn't a legend) and now we are entering Perhaps the KD phase?


Where i think he benefits the most from is Bird Magic Kareem era (probably strongest of all time) coming to an end just as he hit his prime. So Jordan fans use that as him beating legends.

He also was able to take out a young Shaq just as lebron was able to take out a young KD Harden Westbrook.

The best pure prime player was Hakeem and he is in that next tier.

[Jay]

Jordan's the greatest player ever. 6 Rings, finals MVP in all, 5 MVPs, 72 win team, #1 player by advanced metrics, was the best player in the league from age 23-34, apart from the two baseball years. Also had a much tougher road to the finals each season than LBJ has had. But LBJ is #2, even if he retired tomorrow. I don't think he'll pass MJ because I can't see how he's going to win another ring but maybe he just keeps this level of play up for so long that he has to at least be in the discussion. The 'best player in the world' torch was passed to LBJ from Duncan after the 2007 finals, and he's still holding that torch today.

If I had to do a top 10:
1. MJ
2. LBJ
3. Kareem
4. Shaq
5. Wilt
6. Duncan
7. Magic
8. Bird
9. Russell
10. Hakeem

[Mat0369]

RoCo's option was picked up. Easily the best contract in the league at 1.5 mill this year.

[Holz]

Jay what do you mean by #1 in all advanced metrics?

Are just saying PER?

What about BPM OBPM DPBM VORP TSP?

In regular season and finals