NBA Season 2016/17

[R.Griffen]

Only limited number of PG spots. CP3, Harden and Curry are better so he misses out.

You just lost all of your credibility man, not that you ever had any.

Agree

What else does Westbrook have to do?

[Andrew3747]

Oh I dont know. Make more shots, while shooting less. Have a better A/T ratio? Win more games?

I never understood this forum. I just gave you hard evidence and facts on why he isnt even a top 5 PG in the league, yet you still stand by what your opinion is (which is mostly blinded by a triple double on a all time high USG rate). Im telling you the sky is blue, yet your telling me its red..

[Jay]

You want numbers or "hard evidence"?

1st in PER, 4th in RPM, 1st in BPM, 1st in VORP

[Andrew3747]

You need to couple PER with TS and WS, otherwise its not a great stat.  Otherwise Anthony Davis is the GOAT. Obviously someone like Westbrook is going to have the highest VORP, RPM BPM when his USG is 40%? Do you not know how those numbers work?

You need to add context to them otherwise you misinterpret, like you and everyone else here does. Kobe has 38% USG and also had the highest VORP and BPM, but his team didnt even make the playoffs.

[jvalles69]

Oh I dont know. Make more shots, while shooting less. Have a better A/T ratio? Win more games?

I never understood this forum. I just gave you hard evidence and facts on why he isnt even a top 5 PG in the league, yet you still stand by what your opinion is (which is mostly blinded by a triple double on a all time high USG rate). Im telling you the sky is blue, yet your telling me its red..

Stats aren't the be all and end all of what makes a player.  Guy can single-handeldly crush another team off his own back, plus he is a game winner.  I'd bet all the analysts across basketball would have Westbrook in their current top 5 PG's, you're saying your opinion matters more and your evidence is correct.?  Give me a break...  ::)

[Jay]

You need to couple PER with TS and WS, otherwise its not a great stat.  Otherwise Anthony Davis is the GOAT. Obviously someone like Westbrook is going to have the highest VORP, RPM BPM when his USG is 40%? Do you not know how those numbers work?

You need to add context to them otherwise you misinterpret, like you and everyone else here does. Kobe has 38% USG and also had the highest VORP and BPM, but his team didnt even make the playoffs.

How has RPM got anything at all to do with usage? If anything, a higher usage makes a higher plus/minus even more impressive because he's the one creating the offense.

You think Westbrook is inefficient? Maybe, but anyone will be with the the load that he carries. Do you think that Russ' usage is a detriment to his team? Because OKC has a 109.9 offensive rating when he's on the court and a 100.7 when he's off it. OKC has an eFG% of .510 when he's on, and .476 when he's off. Turnovers are higher when he's off than when he's on, and assists are up when he's on he court.

Holding his usage against him when he has poor talent around him is dumb. Yes he's no LeBron being able to win 50 games with a bad supporting cast, but 29-22 in the west is not bad at all.

[Mat0369]

You know who I feel bad for? Dame Lillard. Dude is pretty good but his conference is stacked at the PG position.

[Andrew3747]

Ill do your work for you





PER
Westbrook
Harden
Paul
James
Curry
Lowry


TS%
Curry
Lowry
Harden
Paul
James
Westbrook

WS/48
Paul
Harden
Curry
Lowry
James
Westbrook

USG
Westbrook (41.8%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
Harden
James
Curry
Lowry
Paul


Ortg
Paul
Lowry
Curry
Harden
James
Westbrook

Drtg
Westbrook
Paul
Curry
James
Harden
Lowry


Jay, I'm comparing him to other PG's in the league. He will win the MVP purely because he is more valuable to his team than anyone else. I'm not arguing that. What I'm arguing is that he isn't even a top 5 PG in the league.

[Andrew3747]

You know who I feel bad for? Dame Lillard. Dude is pretty good but his conference is stacked at the PG position.

Kinda hard to win though when your 2nd best player is another guard who needs ball to play well. They are over the cap, so they need to move guys. Dame should leave, but he loves Portland.

[Andrew3747]

Also RPM isnt even taken seriously by most people. Only ESPN use it, because they created it and no one else.  Let alone, ESPN didnt even release how it is calculated....

[plumdog millionaire]

Yeah if you compare 'lead ball handlers' Westbrook is either 5th or 6th depending on how you feel about Lowry. If you're going guys listed as 'PG' on the box score then he's top 3 in the league - That matters because All-NBA and All Star are judged this way.

A lot of his stats are skewed because he's playing with a lot of core players who are non-shooters so that affects his win shares and offensive rating. Yes the efficiency isn't as good as Curry, Paul, etc but look at those stats! His volume is sooo much higher than those other guys, he's taking the 4th most FGA per game, in a season, in the 3 point era. No his efficiency isn't as good as MJ, Kobe, T-Mac or LeBron (Who have 22+ FGA per game), but no one is saying he's better than them.

Also RPM isnt even taken seriously by most people. Only ESPN use it, because they created it and no one else.  Let alone, ESPN didnt even release how it is calculated....

I'd respectfully disagree. Some of the smartest basketball analysts (IN MY OPINION) (Who aren't affiliated with ESPN) take RPM pretty seriously while still recognising its deficiencies - Like having good/bad replacements or playing with/against bench units. It's pretty good at verifying the eye test in my opinion too, if you take a look at the leaders in ORPM and DRPM. It's certainly not as flawed as ESPN's Total QBR that's for sure.

[Jay]

You're seriously saying that Westbrook isn't a top 5 PG because you include LeBron in that list?

Anyway, let's just assume that LeBron is a PG, Kyle Lowry just isn't better than Westbrook.

Last 3 seasons:
Westbrook: 28.6 PER, .544 TS, 32.1 WS, .226 WS/48, 112 O Rating
Lowry: 21.6 PER, .575 TS, 27.4 WS, .184 WS/48, 116 O Rating
Pretty even, but slight edge to Westbrook imo.

Including this season, Westbrook has finished in the top 3 for RPM among point guards every season since since they started recording the stat (13-14). This will be Lowry's first should he hold on. Lowry has been good in this metric too, but not quite Westbrook level.

Last 2 seasons of playoff stats:
Westbrook: 25.8 PER, .527 TS, .186 WS/48
Lowry: 15.4 PER, .492 TS, .049 WS/48

As plumdog points out, and I don't think you're understanding, is that volume counts for a lot. It's a skill to be able to have a usage rate that high. He has to put up as many shots as he does because a bad shot for Westbrook is still better than what Oladipo, Adams or Roberson could create. 

Lowry is having a great regular season as he has for the last few seasons now but he's flowered by the time playoffs roll around. Im a big Lowry fan and don't particularly enjoy Westbrook's game, but there's a clear difference between the two. 

[R.Griffen]

I never understood this forum

And we don't understand you at all.
LeBron is greater than MJ.
A bloke who averages a triple double should do less to help his team, despite single handily winning them games all season
Durant is so far better than Curry, only for you to show stats that Curry leads PG's per 100 pos and advanced rankings. (Your boy LeBron) even in this list.
Westbrook not a top 5 pg in the league. I don't like the bloke, don't rate him that highly. His numbers are out of this world and majority of games his effort is needed for his team to be remotely close

[Andrew3747]

Listen

Team A scores 120 points per game
Team B scores 115 points per game

Team A has X more possessions than Team B.

Team B is better offensively.

James Harden is doing more per possession with his USG, than Westbrook is. This is how teams and players are judged on. Yes, he is doing the best he can with a supporting cast that isn't that great.

Jay, you repeatedly shift posts all the time. Westbrook and Lowry 3 seasons ago weren't the type of players they are today. Why are we comparing them from the 2014 season?

[plumdog millionaire]

Listen

Team A scores 120 points per game
Team B scores 115 points per game

Team A has X more possessions than Team B.

Team B is better offensively.

James Harden is doing more per possession with his USG, than Westbrook is. This is how teams and players are judged on. Yes, he is doing the best he can with a supporting cast that isn't that great.

Could you elaborate on this? Doesn't quite make sense