NBA Season 2016/17

[Andrew3747]

Im obviously including this years "win" against the warriors in 6 years.

for LeBron v MJ in 5 years.

Jordan
3x Rings
2x MVP
3x FMVP
3x Finals


LeBron
3x Rings
2x MVP
3x FMVP
5x Finals

Lets not forget MJ lost vs Shaq and the Magic.

But since you think no one is even close. Im going to make my case. Ill be back in 1 hoursish.

[R.Griffen]

- Stop saying LeBron gets whatever he wants and has all the help in the world. LeBron has never been on a historically elite team. He has never had the team that Bird, Magic, Kareem, Jordan, Russell or any other Mount Rushmore type of player has had.

This is the only part I don't agree with. We should be appreciating greatness and that is why I have no hate for LeBron what so ever. But he joined Wade who had won championship and Bosh.

MJ had good teams too, part of it was building together. Kinda like Steph and the Warriors did before KD come along. Where if you told me Green and Klay were going to be top 10 players in the league when they were drafted or even just after you were kidding yourself.

Now LeBron has joined Cavs and has won a championship he still got elite players around him but just hasn't had anyone join since. The 6 years Jordan had won't and isn't matched by LeBron at all, they were incredible individual and team performances, that is what makes greatness.

LeBron is great there is no doubt about that but MJ is the GOAT

For current day basketball. Just sit back and watch the fun that Golden State have night in and night out. The beast individual performances of Westbrook and Harden atm. While we wait for playoffs LeBron to arrive

[Andrew3747]

This is extremely long. Cliffs are at the bottom. This is obviously pending on LeBron winning more titles. If this does not happen, LeBron's case is closed.

For this case, LeBron James beat GSW and let’s say has gone to another final. The most likely scenario is he will go to 3 more finals, however I'll do 1 win and 2 finals. He is 4-5 in the finals. If LeBron doesn’t win another ring, we can end the conversation there. So here are my cases for LeBron as #1 if this was to happen.

1.   LeBron James is a better basketballer than Michael Jordan
This is straight forward. LeBron is 6’9, 250lbs and plays on ball. He is quicker and stronger. He is better than Michael at everything other than shooting. He has higher basketball IQ. People think Jordan beats LeBron 1v1 and this is crazy. LeBron can defend the shot while Michael will struggle defending the drive. If I had to give a % chance, would be 65/35 in favour of LeBron.

2.   LeBron James will have every simple statistical and most metrical arguments over Michael Jordan.
He will have more points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, FG%, 3PT%, WS, TS, +/-, VORP. PER would be likely the only stat that he would lead in and even then difference is .6 for regular season and 1.1 for Playoffs.


3.   LeBron James has beaten better teams than Michael Jordan.
Again, simple. Jordan never beat Bird’s teams. Never beat the Pistons in their prime. Couldn’t even see the Showtime Lakers. Lost to Shaq and the Magic. He beat the Pistons when Isiah Thomas wasn’t 100%. He beat teams that had 1 star, maximum 2. Even the Jazz and Sonics who had 2 stars, Karl Malone and Stockton weren’t in their prime , only Payton is a HOF for the Sonics.

LeBron James played against a Spurs Dynasty three times. Yes 2 of the 3 times they played they weren’t in their primes but they aged better than the others except maybe Malone. He played against a Mavs team with Dirk, which maybe the worst team LeBron played against, but is still better than 5 of the 6 teams Jordan played. GSW teams are easily the best teams either played and the OKC team was still pretty damn good. If I had to rank them combined, it would be like this.
16 GSW
15 GSW
07 Spurs
13 Spurs
14 Spurs
12 OKC
93 PHX
11 Mavs
97 Jazz
98 Jazz
96 Sonics
91 Lakers
92 Blazers

Jordan played against a total of 10 All Stars and 9 Hall of Famers in 6 finals.
LeBron has played against a total of 15 All stars and 19 potential future Hall of Famers in 7 finals.

•   I did not include James Harden in the HOF since he wasn’t even close to the type of player he is today.  Leonard is also included in this. Terry, Kidd, and Spurs in 14 are not included in this as All Stars.
•   If we include the 17 GSW, it increases to 20 All Stars and 23 Future Hall of Famers.
Another thing to add is that Jordan played when expansions happened and the depth fell. There were more teams with worse winning % and a lot of good teams had a higher winning % because of this.


4.   Michael Jordan has been on way better teams than LeBron James.
Jordan’s bulls have 4 of the top 10 greatest seasons of all time and the Bulls of 95-96 are easily the greatest team until this years Warriors. List of things the Bull had
-   The best Head Coach at that time and maybe GOAT in Phil Jackson
-   The best player in Michael Jordan
-   The best defender and a top 50 all-time player in Scottie Pippen
-   The best rebounder and a top 5 rebounder of all time in Dennis Rodman
-   Top 5 3pt shooter of all time and I believe the current highest 3PT% of all time in Steve Kerr
-   The best Euro in Toni Kukoc.
The list of things LeBron has on his best ever team 12-13 Heat.
-   The best player in LeBron James
-   A coach that was about to be sacked the year before LeBron joined
-   Dwyane Wade who wasn’t healthy (But still a top 3 SG and a top 50 all time player)
-   Chris Bosh who is a face up four at best
-   7 year out of prime Ray Allen
-   Bunch of good pieces who could shoot
LeBron never had the best of anything except for himself. Chris Bosh, Ray Allen, Mike Miller for the G5-7 had a combined average of 11/4/2 including 70mins in game 7 combined for 0 pts 12 rebounds 6 assists. Jordan never had to worry about Rodman giving him 0 rebounds.
Chris Bosh is not an elite player. He was a very good player @ Toronto and turned into a great piece for LeBron.

LeBron was favourite 2 out of 7. Jordan was 6 out of 6.


5.   Get ready for this one. LeBron James is more clutch than Michael Jordan.
I know what you’re thinking. No way. However, stats say something that the media doesn’t want you to hear. LeBron James comes up huge in 4th Quarters, OT’s and elimination games in playoffs. This is what I think Clutch means. Not only taking the last shot but doing everything.

- Jordan and LeBron both have 3 buzzer beaters for 7 attempted in the playoffs.
- In the final 5 seconds Jordan is 5/11 and LeBron is 6/10
- in the final 24 seconds, Jordan is 11/28 and LeBron is 9/18
- In the final 60 seconds, Jordan is 14/37 and LeBron is 13/27
- In the 4th and OT, while on the floor Jordan’s teams are 115 pts per 100 possessions. LeBron is 118 per 100.
- In the 4th and OT, while on the floor Jordan’s teams give up 104 per 100 possessions. LeBron is 101 per 100.
- Jordan’s stat line for elimination games, 31.9  7.8 7.0 on 44% shooting
- LeBron’s stat line for elimination games, 32.9 10.8 6.9 on 47% shooting
- LeBron has only scored less than 30 points once since 2011 in game 6 or 7s or elimination games and that was game 7 vs GSW 2016.
- Coming back from 3-1 vs this 73 win team maybe the greatest achievement in NBA history.
- He has 4 of the top 10 playoff achievements in history. 2012 ECF Game vs Boston, 2007 vs Detroit, the stretch of Games 5-7 in 2016, and taking the GSW to 6 games with Delly as his 2nd best player. Robbed of the FMVP. 36-13-9-1-.5 on 40% and 32%.
- LeBron’s game 6 final quarter in 2013, 16-5-5-2-1. He did get 3 “turnovers” (1 50/50 charge call, a deflection and 1 really bad pass by him) which is all that gets highlighted but they forget what he did and the two 3’s that he made in the final 5 mins.
- LeBron has 0 first round exits. Jordan has 3.
- LeBron has been swept once. Jordan 4 times.
To the people who want to make the argument that Kyrie takes all the clutch shots. Paxton and Kerr splashed a few 3’s in the clutch for Jordan in big games.


6.   LeBron James makes his teams better
Don’t think anyone can argue this. Look what happened to the Cavs and Heat when he left, compared to the Bulls. The Bulls were one shocking call away from another Finals. The Cavs got the 1st pick in the lottery. LeBron’s team score more points than Jordan when his on the floor but score way less when they both aren’t on the floor. He made Mo Williams an All Star. He took a team who’s second best player was Z to a final. Open and Shut case.


7.   LeBron is a better team mate
This one is sort of meh but I think it’s worth bringing up. Players take cuts to play with LeBron. He is a better shot caller and gets everyone involved a lot more.





Cliffs:
LeBron is better at Basketball
LeBron will have 99% of the stat arguments
LeBron beat better teams
LeBron played on worse teams
LeBron is more clutch
LeBron makes his teams better
LeBron is a better team mate

[Andrew3747]

Not to mention Jordan's record pre Pippen is pretty bad.

[R.Griffen]

Too far

[Andrew3747]

Too far

Tell me where and we can discuss but saying "too far" isn't good and doesn't bring anything to the conversation.

[Mat0369]

If anyone hasn't seen it, Saric and Covington ripped the third quarter apart today. 6'ers scored 42 points and they were a huge part of it.

https://twitter.com/Sixers/status/826295556238610432

That's the Saric highlights, his passing and court vision is just ridiculous.

[jvalles69]

Sounds like it's turned into an I hate Michael Jordan thread...

Jordan did not have a better team than Lebron James on 2 occasions (Miami big 3 and Cavs big 3), Jordan made those players better than they actually were.  Look at the 93-94 and 94-95 seasons, Bulls record dropped a fair bit when MJ left and rejoined partway through a season.  To me this makes MJ a better teammate by far.  Lebron doges in public about his teammates, MJ trashed his teammates in private and this made them better and more competitive, these guys wanted to win because MJ told them they were failures is they didn't win.  MJ transformed "mediocre" teammates except for Pippen and Rodman into championship role players.  Lebron wants to keep adding "pieces" cos he just can't get it done with what he has.

[Andrew3747]

94 Bulls almost made the finals without Jordon.

LeBron took a 19 win team to the finals.

Bulls went 57 wins 55 lol.

Cavs went from 61 wins to 19....

How does that make Jordan a better team mate? IMO LBJ as the better team mate and worse teams  is probably the only one that you cannot argue against. Kerr, Kukoc, Paxton, Oakley, BJ were all better than any of the none main peices than LeBron has ever had.

Again Ive listed things that you haven't rebutted at all. Jordans teams were unbelievably stacked from 93+. 2012 Heat and 16 Cavs are the only teams you can put above any of Jordans 6 Championship teams.

I dont hate Jordan. Jordan is the GOAT and probably will stay that way since LBJ wont be able to beat this GSW or Spurs.

[R.Griffen]

Sounds like it's turned into an I hate Michael Jordan thread...

Also sounds like a I hate Wade, Bosh, Kyrie and Love thread

[Andrew3747]

Kyrie is 24 and not in his prime.  He isnt even the best PG in the conference. Love is a great 3rd peice as was Bosh. Wade like I say is easily the 3rd best SG ever and is a top 50 player of all time but he wasnt peak in the GOAT Heat season.

[Jay]

I did say that LBJ's constant whining about the Cavs roster was getting pretty annoying, simply because he gave Mo Williams, Chris Andersen and James Jones roster spots. Maybe if he didn't gift spots to his buddies then the GM could've had more of a chance to find a "playmaker". I think David Griffin has done a fantastic job with this roster, picking up Shump, JR, Mozgov, Delly, Korver, Frye and Jefferson for next to nothing. Dan Gilbert, the Cavs owner is also paying a huge luxury tax bill by doing what LBJ wanted and giving JR and Tristan big contracts. There's literally nothing that LeBron can complain about, every move that his franchise has made since he's come back has pretty much paid off.

That's all the negative that I have to say, because any sane person has LeBron in at least their top 5. But some points you made I do not agree with. Yes its true that in his early days with the Cavs, LBJ was carrying scrubs to the eastern conference finals every year. That isn't the case now though. He had two all-star calibre players in Miami and he has another two now. Bosh was elite in Miami, I think you're seriously underrating him. The ability he gave them to go small while not sacrificing much on the defensive end was critical to their success - in my opinion, he's a certain HOFer. Love was a beast before LeBron and still is very good with LeBron. Irving certainly isn't as good as Wade was in '11 or '12 but he's probably not too far off what Wade was in '13 and '14. Both teams had good role players: Chalmers and Battier both spread the floor and could defend multiple positions, and Ray was still lethal from outside. I'd argue that he probably has better role players now but the latter two of the big three were better in Miami.

2.   LeBron James will have every simple statistical and most metrical arguments over Michael Jordan.

I think you're exagerrating this a fair bit, I'll put the numbers in here so everyone else can see.
Michael Jordan: 29.1 PER, 204.5 WS, .274 WS/48, .580 TS%, 33.5 USG, 9.3 TOV%, 9.0 BPM, 99.8 VORP, 120 offensive rating, 103 defensive rating
LeBron James: 27.6 PER, 199.7 WS, .239 WS/48, .581 TS%, 31.6 USG, 12.7 TOV%, 9.1 BPM, 112.7 VORP, 116 offensive rating, 102 defensive rating

Playoff MJ: 28.6 PER, 39.8 WS, .255 WS/48, .568 TS%, 35.6 USG, 9.4 TOV%, 10.1 BPM, 22.8 VORP, 118 offensive rating, 104 defensive rating
Playoff LBJ: 27.7 PER, 41.6 WS, .238 WS/48, .567 TS%, 32 USG, 12.5 TOV%, 10.7 BPM, 26.8 VORP, 115 offensive rating, 101 defensive rating.
TL:DR? It's pretty hard to use the advanced statistics argument for anything other than "MJ has a slight edge over LBJ"

Also, I think you've analysed some of the opponents wrong. For example, lets compare the 97 Jazz to a few teams you have ranked above them:
97 Utah: 64-18 win/loss, 7.97 SRS, +9.6 net rating compared to league average
11 Mavs: 57-25 win/loss, 4.41 SRS, +4.7 net rating compared to league average
12 OKC: 47-19 win/loss, 6.44 SRS, +6.6 net rating compared to league average
13 Spurs: 58-24 win/loss, 6.67 SRS, +6.7 net rating compared to league average

Yes beating last years Warriors is the biggest accomplishment that either MJ or LBJ have had, but it would also be misleading not to mention the fact that Steph was injured and only able to play at like 65% of what he did in the regular season.

Overall, I think LBJ is the 2nd best player ever, but we probably disagree on the gap between him and MJ.

[Andrew3747]

Like how you exlude the final 2 seasons from Jordan :)

First, never said Heat ddnt have great peices. All the teams did have great peices.

I can prob take the Utah thing. Utah is way overated though. They overachieved for 64 wins when there were way showerter teams. Some people have the 91 lakers above them. Mavs beat Kobe Lakers, Duncan Spurs, Durant Thunder and LeBron Heat. Dirk was pretty damn good and carried his team like what LeBron should have done.

Bosh was a great peice but he was never elite. He had super elite numbers as the only guy @ toronto. Defensively he was fine but never a stopper. Same situation with KLove.

Steph was good enough to drop 46 and come back from 3-1 vs OKC though after the injury.

Thanks Jay for going into that!

[Jay]

We're coming for that 1 seed, Cleveland :)

[Andrew3747]

Izzy Thomas...

Doesnt matter where we seed though, we dont make it out of the east.