2016 WXV Awards and 2016 Rules Discussion

[Ricochet]

BTW, there is no competition at Berlin, my Coaches Award goes to Daniel Talia.

Second round rookie draft pick and serial fantasy spud, has turned into being one of the best defenders in the second half of the year particularly :D

Winner

[meow meow]

There's not many candidates for the coaches award from 'church since the majority of the team has gone backwards this season. In what might be a surprising choice I am going to nominate Jordan Roughead for carrying the ruck load for the whole season. He's really starting to come good, and with an 81 average without Campbell in the team I am considering trading out Sandilands and going with him as #1 ruck next year.

[Nige]

The only logical choice for Cairo.

[ossie85]

I think this is better as an alternate Cap (I've made a few tweaks):

How to value each player:

Average of the 22 H&A games from the last 3 years (66 games max), multiplied by 2000 (just a magic number to look good)
Multiplied by a 'Premium factor', i.e. 1 + percentage of times that player has scored over 100
Multiplied by a 'Durability factor', i.e. 1 + games played/66 games (games played in home and away season, I'm missing the last 7 rounds so this will be adjusted, so currently is games played/59)
Essendon replacement players are EXCLUDED from the cap.

Players with less than 10 games are discounted. Minimum price is $100,000

Team	Total	Players
Mexico City Suns	$12,735,000	45
Dublin Destroyers	$12,190,000	45
Rio de Janeiro Jaguars	$11,626,000	46
Berlin Brewers	$11,511,000	45
Christchurch Saints	$11,314,000	45
Buenos Aires Armadillos	$11,285,000	46
New York Revolution	$11,271,000	45
PNL Reindeers	$11,076,000	45
Beijing Thunder	$10,998,000	45
Pacific Islanders	$10,739,000	45
Moscow Spetsnaz	$10,666,000	45
New Delhi Tigers	$10,487,000	46
Seoul Magpies	$10,463,000	45
Tokyo Samurai	$9,871,000	45
Cape Town Cobras	$9,867,000	45
Cairo Sands	$9,640,000	46
London Royals	$9,192,000	45
Toronto Wolves	$8,642,000	45
Essendon Top Up	$2,073,000	10

I think this aligns with the ladder ok right?

So when we have the final scores for the year (the end of the Grand Final), these prices will change. Some will go up, some will go down. But nothing will change dramatically.

The Average of the players are: $10,754,056

I propose the cap be 5% more than the average each year = $11,300,000 for this year. Meaning Mexico City, Dublin, Rio de Janeiro, Berlin and Christchurch are over the cap (but only Dublin and Mexico City significantly). 5% doesn't sound like much, but as you can see only a couple are above it. ALSO, these prices include a whole heap of players that will be retiring/delisted.

The minimum cap, of say a very generous 15% below the average = $9,140,000. Only Toronto under it, and London pretty close.


The system is exactly the same as the points cap in practice, just a more accurate reflection of real life. Players like Dayne Beams are more accurately priced.

[Nige]

Oh shower, here we go again.

[Ricochet]

I'm really warming to it Os. Especially how it takes into account averages over a couple of years

[meow meow]

Instead of premium factor why not incorporate a "starting quality" of an 80 average to seperate best XV players from depth players? Mexico City could have a forward who scores 90 every single week sitting in their reserves who attracts no 100+ premium, but is most certainly worthy of attracting a larger price tag than other reserve players.

[Ricochet]

Instead of premium factor why not incorporate a "starting quality" of an 80 average to seperate best XV players from depth players? Mexico City could have a forward who scores 90 every single week sitting in their reserves who attracts no 100+ premium, but is most certainly worthy of attracting a larger price tag than other reserve players.

Like a top 20 or so scorers of each position?

[Holz]

I think this is better as an alternate Cap (I've made a few tweaks):

How to value each player:

Average of the 22 H&A games from the last 3 years (66 games max), multiplied by 2000 (just a magic number to look good)
Multiplied by a 'Premium factor', i.e. 1 + percentage of times that player has scored over 100
Multiplied by a 'Durability factor', i.e. 1 + games played/66 games (games played in home and away season, I'm missing the last 7 rounds so this will be adjusted, so currently is games played/59)
Essendon replacement players are EXCLUDED from the cap.

Players with less than 10 games are discounted. Minimum price is $100,000

Team	Total	Players
Mexico City Suns	$12,735,000	45
Dublin Destroyers	$12,190,000	45
Rio de Janeiro Jaguars	$11,626,000	46
Berlin Brewers	$11,511,000	45
Christchurch Saints	$11,314,000	45
Buenos Aires Armadillos	$11,285,000	46
New York Revolution	$11,271,000	45
PNL Reindeers	$11,076,000	45
Beijing Thunder	$10,998,000	45
Pacific Islanders	$10,739,000	45
Moscow Spetsnaz	$10,666,000	45
New Delhi Tigers	$10,487,000	46
Seoul Magpies	$10,463,000	45
Tokyo Samurai	$9,871,000	45
Cape Town Cobras	$9,867,000	45
Cairo Sands	$9,640,000	46
London Royals	$9,192,000	45
Toronto Wolves	$8,642,000	45
Essendon Top Up	$2,073,000	10

I think this aligns with the ladder ok right?

So when we have the final scores for the year (the end of the Grand Final), these prices will change. Some will go up, some will go down. But nothing will change dramatically.

The Average of the players are: $10,754,056

I propose the cap be 5% more than the average each year = $11,300,000 for this year. Meaning Mexico City, Dublin, Rio de Janeiro, Berlin and Christchurch are over the cap (but only Dublin and Mexico City significantly). 5% doesn't sound like much, but as you can see only a couple are above it. ALSO, these prices include a whole heap of players that will be retiring/delisted.

The minimum cap, of say a very generous 15% below the average = $9,140,000. Only Toronto under it, and London pretty close.


The system is exactly the same as the points cap in practice, just a more accurate reflection of real life. Players like Dayne Beams are more accurately priced.

what are we trying to do? stop teams from succeeding or stop teams from having too strong a list.

The comp is fair. Mexico is old and with little depth. Dublin has a majority of its players 28+ and has extremely little depth. Rio is 3rd on the scoring and will likely not make the prelims. Berlin is 4th despite not making finals.

Pacific is classified as a middle rung team despite having a top 3 list.

I just dont get the point. The current system seems fine. neglecting age makes this cap pointless in my mind. All this does is punishes people with established talent and especially guys on the decline, while rewarding guys with true young superstars. Bontempelli has an average of 97.1 but despite this he is basically the most valuable player in the comp. He is essentially worth the same as Nick Dal Santo.





at the end of the day the top cap teams just drop a few spuds and the bottom cap teams pick up these spuds and once they get over the cap they delist them.

really all the cap does is affect bench players, which is something the top teams have the least of, people arent going to drop a star so all you do is say well Rio you have a strong 15 so your over the cap but lets take all your backup bench players so now that your injured in finals you stand no chance.

[meow meow]

Instead of premium factor why not incorporate a "starting quality" of an 80 average to seperate best XV players from depth players? Mexico City could have a forward who scores 90 every single week sitting in their reserves who attracts no 100+ premium, but is most certainly worthy of attracting a larger price tag than other reserve players.

Like a top 20 or so scorers of each position?

Nope, like every player who averages more than 80. They should be playing in a senior WXV team, therefore should cost more than depth players.

[meow meow]

As Holz states often: 50 spud + 50 spud + 50 spud costs more than Rory Sloane. Those 50 spuds should cost next to nothing under the cap.

[Holz]

Oz can you give an example of Rory Sloane for the premium factor and durability factor so i get an idea on how they are calculated.

[ossie85]

Instead of premium factor why not incorporate a "starting quality" of an 80 average to seperate best XV players from depth players? Mexico City could have a forward who scores 90 every single week sitting in their reserves who attracts no 100+ premium, but is most certainly worthy of attracting a larger price tag than other reserve players.

Ultimately where the number starts is arbitrary I would've thought, wanted to introduce something that factored in scoring power. I.e. points scored aren't linear, a 50 averaging player is worth far less than half that of a 100 averaging player.

Instead of premium factor why not incorporate a "starting quality" of an 80 average to seperate best XV players from depth players? Mexico City could have a forward who scores 90 every single week sitting in their reserves who attracts no 100+ premium, but is most certainly worthy of attracting a larger price tag than other reserve players.

Like a top 20 or so scorers of each position?

Too hard to implement, as positions will change before next season, players will retire, and this would have to be finalised before those new positions are announced.

what are we trying to do? stop teams from succeeding or stop teams from having too strong a list.

The comp is fair. Mexico is old and with little depth. Dublin has a majority of its players 28+ and has extremely little depth. Rio is 3rd on the scoring and will likely not make the prelims. Berlin is 4th despite not making finals.

Pacific is classified as a middle rung team despite having a top 3 list.

I just dont get the point. The current system seems fine. neglecting age makes this cap pointless in my mind.


at the end of the day the top cap teams just drop a few spuds and the bottom cap teams pick up these spuds and once they get over the cap they delist them.

really all the cap does is affect bench players, which is something the top teams have the least of, people arent going to drop a star so all you do is say well Rio you have a strong 15 so your over the cap but lets take all your backup bench players so now that your injured in finals you stand no chance.

The current cap, though I think has been successful, is far worse at reflecting reality than the new IMO. Mexico City and Dublin have dominated the competition for 3 years, and the cap has them at the top.

Teams 3 to 13 are all pretty close in Cap terms, and will have no problem staying under, and all are competitive teams week to week. While the bottom 5 have had some big struggles recently.

The teams that have won the last 4 flags have been teams that have preferred older players. Thus it make sense that older players are priced higher IMO. Cheaper youth encourages people to go for youth.... And you seem to be arguing against yourself Holz by saying 'teams will just drop spuds'... well, if older players are relatively dearer, that will be harder to do.

Your other points are just arguing against a cap, regardless of what system it is. That's not what this is suggesting. If you want to put up a rule change to remove the cap, feel free to do so.

The Cap isn't to make every team EQUAL, it is to provide an equal playing field.

[meow meow]

I think we'd be a lot clearer on the proposed system if we could get a few figures. How much is Danger? Bont? Stringer? Garlett? Lever?

[ossie85]

Oz can you give an example of Rory Sloane for the premium factor and durability factor so i get an idea on how they are calculated.

Name	2016 Team	Games	Average	Prem	Dur	Price
S Pendlebury	Buenos Aires Armadillos	58	119.98	1.86	1.98	$886,000
P Dangerfield	Seoul Magpies	58	118.22	1.67	1.98	$784,000
T Goldstein	Dublin Destroyers	56	116.46	1.71	1.95	$778,000
JP Kennedy	Cape Town Cobras	56	111.09	1.77	1.95	$766,000
N Fyfe	Berlin Brewers	41	121.12	1.85	1.69	$761,000
M Priddis	PNL Reindeers	58	111.14	1.71	1.98	$752,000
J Selwood	Dublin Destroyers	57	112.96	1.65	1.97	$733,000
C Ward	Beijing Thunder	57	108.72	1.67	1.97	$713,000
D Hannebery	London Royals	53	110.66	1.70	1.90	$713,000
R Gray	Moscow Spetsnaz	55	109.42	1.67	1.93	$707,000
R Sloane	Dublin Destroyers	53	110.53	1.68	1.90	$705,000
G Ablett	Rio de Janeiro Jaguars	35	124.00	1.77	1.59	$700,000
A Treloar	Dublin Destroyers	56	106.80	1.64	1.95	$684,000
L Parker	Tokyo Samurai	56	106.23	1.63	1.95	$673,000
S Jacobs	Rio de Janeiro Jaguars	58	106.66	1.59	1.98	$671,000

And meow...

As Holz states often: 50 spud + 50 spud + 50 spud costs more than Rory Sloane. Those 50 spuds should cost next to nothing under the cap.

Name	2016 Team	Games	Average	Prem	Dur	Price
T Lonergan	London Royals	53	58.87	1.04	1.90	$232,000
L Brown	Beijing Thunder	57	57.51	1.02	1.97	$230,000
L Casboult	PNL Reindeers	49	59.20	1.04	1.83	$226,000
J Patfull	Berlin Brewers	50	58.48	1.02	1.85	$220,000
A Young	Tokyo Samurai	39	59.79	1.10	1.66	$219,000
W Hartung	London Royals	39	59.08	1.10	1.66	$216,000
W Schofield	Cape Town Cobras	50	57.38	1.02	1.85	$216,000
B Stratton	Cairo Sands	48	58.88	1.00	1.81	$214,000
Mat Shaw	London Royals	41	59.95	1.02	1.69	$208,000

As you can see, these spuds are worth next to nothing. These are the most expensive 60 and below averaging players, and they are that expensive because they've played a lot of matches. None of them come close to the premiums.