Main Menu

NBA Season 2015/16

Started by R.Griffen, May 12, 2015, 11:15:04 PM

Previous topic - Next topic
Print
Go Down Pages 1 ... 91 92 93 94 95 ... 198
User actions

plumdog millionaire

#1381
February 09, 2016, 08:23:32 PM

jvalles69

#1382
February 09, 2016, 10:23:08 PM

valkorum

#1383
February 09, 2016, 10:31:43 PM
After losing 7 out of 8, you would think you NEED to turn up.

Jay

#1384
February 10, 2016, 01:50:06 AM
Quote from: Holz on February 09, 2016, 10:47:22 AM
Quote from: Jayman on February 08, 2016, 11:19:18 PM
I think it's fair enough that Curry is ranked over IT. Isiah although being the focal point of those Pistons teams, it's not close to what Steph is doing. Steph single handedly takes a pretty good team, to an all-time dominant team. I don't think Isiah did that. I think Havlicek is in a similar boat. Great player but isn't the reason for dominance like Curry is.



Ill address this one first, will be interesting to see what you come back with.

Isiah Thomas has two rings

his first when he had to beat James Worthy, Kareem and Magic in the finals in the year Magic was the league MVP and not only did that but did that in a sweep. Dumars did get the mvp but Isiah was probably the second best player on team comfortably much like steph was this year.

the difference Warriors 4-2 against 1 of the big 3. Pistons 4-0 against showtime

Ill also remind you that they had to take out a young Michael Jordan who was in his 5th year of his career so no rookie.

his second ring he had to come up against Michael Jordan in his 6th year as they made a big push and took them out in a 7 game series. This was with pippen and right before they three peated so they were close to elite.

his second ring he came up against clyde drexter who had knocked out a primed David Robinson on the way to the finals. they won 4-1 and Isiah picked up the Finals MVP

im sorry but 2 rings taking out the likes of Jordan, Pippen just before they three peated, taking out showtime lakers with worthy kareem and magic and then a finals MVP against clyde drexler and his squad.

Is far far more impressive then being the second best player in a finals team who took out a team with their second and third best players gone taking 6 games to do it. i dont care that they played Lebron nobody alone can do it, Jordan with Pippen couldnt even beat the pistons.

I should also add they waltzed into the finals on the back of playing teams with no PGs their floor admirals.

Im sorry but Stephs regualr season record is great 2 MVPs 1 scoring title, best 3 point shooting season ever.

his playoff resume is nothing, to me its not even close to top 100 of all time.

He can change that this year with a finals MVP and some wins against the spurs/thunder/cavs (hopefully fit)  but for now he has shown me nothing.

putting him ahead of Thomas is disrespectful at this point.


here is a question.

I propose you this.

Warriors v Cavs last year.

Irving Love fully fit and Klay Thompson, Draymond Green dont play.

how do you have that game playing out?
I'm not doubting that Isiah was a great, but just don't think he was ever as dominant as Curry. In Isiah's best ever statistical season, the Pistons went 46-36 and lost in the second round with Isiah finishing 9th in the MVP voting. Curry's best ever season (not including the one in progress), the Warriors went 67-15, won the championship without even being forced to a game 7, and Steph won the MVP. If you think that Jrue Holiday, Pat Beverley and Mike Conley are such amazing players that the Warriors should have an asterisk next to how they got to the finals - then you might want to re-think how you rate those guys. And if you want to talk about roads to the finals, Cleveland's wasn't exactly a blood-bath. An inexperienced and severely lacking in talent Boston team, a washed up Chicago Bulls and an over achieving, injured Hawks team.

In Isiah's amazing first ring you speak of, he had an 18.6 PER in the playoffs - that mark would rank 54th in this current NBA season. Vinnie Johnson led that Pistons post-season in PER. Dumars led them in Win Shares. John Salley led them in Win Shares per 48 minutes. Over the regular season it was Dantley who led the team in PER and offensive rating, Laimbeer had the most win shares and defensive rating. Statistically speaking, Isiah was little more than just a good player on those Pistons teams. In the finals, Dumars was far better than Isiah. Salley and Laimbeer with their defense, Rodman with his rebounding were just as crucial in those finals as Isiah.

You look at the season where Isiah won his next ring. Led the team in PER by 0.1. Laimbeer led the team in Win Shares, Box Plus-Minus, defensive rating and VORP. Rodman led the team in offensive rating. Everything I'm looking at suggests that Detroit was an all-round great team in particular defensively, with many very good players. Isiah doesn't stand out from the crowd. On the surface, it does seem like Isiah had an amazing 1989-90 playoff run.. But is it fair to say that the eastern conference finals that year vs Jordan was basically the finals that year? Isiah went 17.6 points, 40% shooting.

Point is, Isiah didn't take down Jordan, Magic etc as you say he did. The Detroit Pistons beat those guys. Steph was convincingly the best player on the Warriors all regular season, all playoffs and the finals MVP was a 50/50 that should have probably gone to Steph.

As for your hypothetical, that's completely unfair. Draymond is far superior to both Irving and Love. Even Klay Thompson is a much better player than Love. Klay vs Irving is a contest. Cleveland just weren't as good of a team as Golden State last year, injury ridden or not. Golden State had a 10.1 point differential last year, that ranks 8th all-time - they have a 12.6 this year which if they keep up will rank as the best ever (well actually the Spurs are at 13.4 right now so GSW might break the previous record and still not be first - crazy we have 2 all-time elite teams in the same season). Cleveland are really good but they just aren't in the same league.

jvalles69

#1385
February 10, 2016, 03:27:12 AM
Quote from: Jayman on February 10, 2016, 01:50:06 AM
Quote from: Holz on February 09, 2016, 10:47:22 AM
Quote from: Jayman on February 08, 2016, 11:19:18 PM
I think it's fair enough that Curry is ranked over IT. Isiah although being the focal point of those Pistons teams, it's not close to what Steph is doing. Steph single handedly takes a pretty good team, to an all-time dominant team. I don't think Isiah did that. I think Havlicek is in a similar boat. Great player but isn't the reason for dominance like Curry is.



Ill address this one first, will be interesting to see what you come back with.

Isiah Thomas has two rings

his first when he had to beat James Worthy, Kareem and Magic in the finals in the year Magic was the league MVP and not only did that but did that in a sweep. Dumars did get the mvp but Isiah was probably the second best player on team comfortably much like steph was this year.

the difference Warriors 4-2 against 1 of the big 3. Pistons 4-0 against showtime

Ill also remind you that they had to take out a young Michael Jordan who was in his 5th year of his career so no rookie.

his second ring he had to come up against Michael Jordan in his 6th year as they made a big push and took them out in a 7 game series. This was with pippen and right before they three peated so they were close to elite.

his second ring he came up against clyde drexter who had knocked out a primed David Robinson on the way to the finals. they won 4-1 and Isiah picked up the Finals MVP

im sorry but 2 rings taking out the likes of Jordan, Pippen just before they three peated, taking out showtime lakers with worthy kareem and magic and then a finals MVP against clyde drexler and his squad.

Is far far more impressive then being the second best player in a finals team who took out a team with their second and third best players gone taking 6 games to do it. i dont care that they played Lebron nobody alone can do it, Jordan with Pippen couldnt even beat the pistons.

I should also add they waltzed into the finals on the back of playing teams with no PGs their floor admirals.

Im sorry but Stephs regualr season record is great 2 MVPs 1 scoring title, best 3 point shooting season ever.

his playoff resume is nothing, to me its not even close to top 100 of all time.

He can change that this year with a finals MVP and some wins against the spurs/thunder/cavs (hopefully fit)  but for now he has shown me nothing.

putting him ahead of Thomas is disrespectful at this point.


here is a question.

I propose you this.

Warriors v Cavs last year.

Irving Love fully fit and Klay Thompson, Draymond Green dont play.

how do you have that game playing out?
I'm not doubting that Isiah was a great, but just don't think he was ever as dominant as Curry. In Isiah's best ever statistical season, the Pistons went 46-36 and lost in the second round with Isiah finishing 9th in the MVP voting. Curry's best ever season (not including the one in progress), the Warriors went 67-15, won the championship without even being forced to a game 7, and Steph won the MVP. If you think that Jrue Holiday, Pat Beverley and Mike Conley are such amazing players that the Warriors should have an asterisk next to how they got to the finals - then you might want to re-think how you rate those guys. And if you want to talk about roads to the finals, Cleveland's wasn't exactly a blood-bath. An inexperienced and severely lacking in talent Boston team, a washed up Chicago Bulls and an over achieving, injured Hawks team.

In Isiah's amazing first ring you speak of, he had an 18.6 PER in the playoffs - that mark would rank 54th in this current NBA season. Vinnie Johnson led that Pistons post-season in PER. Dumars led them in Win Shares. John Salley led them in Win Shares per 48 minutes. Over the regular season it was Dantley who led the team in PER and offensive rating, Laimbeer had the most win shares and defensive rating. Statistically speaking, Isiah was little more than just a good player on those Pistons teams. In the finals, Dumars was far better than Isiah. Salley and Laimbeer with their defense, Rodman with his rebounding were just as crucial in those finals as Isiah.

You look at the season where Isiah won his next ring. Led the team in PER by 0.1. Laimbeer led the team in Win Shares, Box Plus-Minus, defensive rating and VORP. Rodman led the team in offensive rating. Everything I'm looking at suggests that Detroit was an all-round great team in particular defensively, with many very good players. Isiah doesn't stand out from the crowd. On the surface, it does seem like Isiah had an amazing 1989-90 playoff run.. But is it fair to say that the eastern conference finals that year vs Jordan was basically the finals that year? Isiah went 17.6 points, 40% shooting.

Point is, Isiah didn't take down Jordan, Magic etc as you say he did. The Detroit Pistons beat those guys. Steph was convincingly the best player on the Warriors all regular season, all playoffs and the finals MVP was a 50/50 that should have probably gone to Steph.

As for your hypothetical, that's completely unfair. Draymond is far superior to both Irving and Love. Even Klay Thompson is a much better player than Love. Klay vs Irving is a contest. Cleveland just weren't as good of a team as Golden State last year, injury ridden or not. Golden State had a 10.1 point differential last year, that ranks 8th all-time - they have a 12.6 this year which if they keep up will rank as the best ever (well actually the Spurs are at 13.4 right now so GSW might break the previous record and still not be first - crazy we have 2 all-time elite teams in the same season). Cleveland are really good but they just aren't in the same league.

I completely disagree with the bolded statement in your last paragraph.  Kyrie and Love are as good if not better on any other team in the NBA.  If Dray and Klay were the main guys on on any other team, no way are they as good as they are on that GSW roster...NO WAY.  They've discovered the key to playing selflessly and efficiently together which is a damn hard thing to do, but both those guys numbers go down the toilet if they are the main men on another team.  Yep, Love didn't take his T'wolves far on his own, and Kyrie the same with the Cavs, but they both put up great numbers and were consistent all-stars...Dray and Klay wouldn't be close to all-star status if they were the lone hand on another team...

plumdog millionaire

#1386
February 10, 2016, 06:54:03 AM
The gap isn't as big when you consider that Draymond is a top 5 defender in the league

Holz

#1387
February 10, 2016, 10:00:39 AM
Quote from: jvalles69 on February 10, 2016, 03:27:12 AM
Quote from: Jayman on February 10, 2016, 01:50:06 AM
Quote from: Holz on February 09, 2016, 10:47:22 AM
Quote from: Jayman on February 08, 2016, 11:19:18 PM
I think it's fair enough that Curry is ranked over IT. Isiah although being the focal point of those Pistons teams, it's not close to what Steph is doing. Steph single handedly takes a pretty good team, to an all-time dominant team. I don't think Isiah did that. I think Havlicek is in a similar boat. Great player but isn't the reason for dominance like Curry is.



Ill address this one first, will be interesting to see what you come back with.

Isiah Thomas has two rings

his first when he had to beat James Worthy, Kareem and Magic in the finals in the year Magic was the league MVP and not only did that but did that in a sweep. Dumars did get the mvp but Isiah was probably the second best player on team comfortably much like steph was this year.

the difference Warriors 4-2 against 1 of the big 3. Pistons 4-0 against showtime

Ill also remind you that they had to take out a young Michael Jordan who was in his 5th year of his career so no rookie.

his second ring he had to come up against Michael Jordan in his 6th year as they made a big push and took them out in a 7 game series. This was with pippen and right before they three peated so they were close to elite.

his second ring he came up against clyde drexter who had knocked out a primed David Robinson on the way to the finals. they won 4-1 and Isiah picked up the Finals MVP

im sorry but 2 rings taking out the likes of Jordan, Pippen just before they three peated, taking out showtime lakers with worthy kareem and magic and then a finals MVP against clyde drexler and his squad.

Is far far more impressive then being the second best player in a finals team who took out a team with their second and third best players gone taking 6 games to do it. i dont care that they played Lebron nobody alone can do it, Jordan with Pippen couldnt even beat the pistons.

I should also add they waltzed into the finals on the back of playing teams with no PGs their floor admirals.

Im sorry but Stephs regualr season record is great 2 MVPs 1 scoring title, best 3 point shooting season ever.

his playoff resume is nothing, to me its not even close to top 100 of all time.

He can change that this year with a finals MVP and some wins against the spurs/thunder/cavs (hopefully fit)  but for now he has shown me nothing.

putting him ahead of Thomas is disrespectful at this point.


here is a question.

I propose you this.

Warriors v Cavs last year.

Irving Love fully fit and Klay Thompson, Draymond Green dont play.

how do you have that game playing out?
I'm not doubting that Isiah was a great, but just don't think he was ever as dominant as Curry. In Isiah's best ever statistical season, the Pistons went 46-36 and lost in the second round with Isiah finishing 9th in the MVP voting. Curry's best ever season (not including the one in progress), the Warriors went 67-15, won the championship without even being forced to a game 7, and Steph won the MVP. If you think that Jrue Holiday, Pat Beverley and Mike Conley are such amazing players that the Warriors should have an asterisk next to how they got to the finals - then you might want to re-think how you rate those guys. And if you want to talk about roads to the finals, Cleveland's wasn't exactly a blood-bath. An inexperienced and severely lacking in talent Boston team, a washed up Chicago Bulls and an over achieving, injured Hawks team.

In Isiah's amazing first ring you speak of, he had an 18.6 PER in the playoffs - that mark would rank 54th in this current NBA season. Vinnie Johnson led that Pistons post-season in PER. Dumars led them in Win Shares. John Salley led them in Win Shares per 48 minutes. Over the regular season it was Dantley who led the team in PER and offensive rating, Laimbeer had the most win shares and defensive rating. Statistically speaking, Isiah was little more than just a good player on those Pistons teams. In the finals, Dumars was far better than Isiah. Salley and Laimbeer with their defense, Rodman with his rebounding were just as crucial in those finals as Isiah.

You look at the season where Isiah won his next ring. Led the team in PER by 0.1. Laimbeer led the team in Win Shares, Box Plus-Minus, defensive rating and VORP. Rodman led the team in offensive rating. Everything I'm looking at suggests that Detroit was an all-round great team in particular defensively, with many very good players. Isiah doesn't stand out from the crowd. On the surface, it does seem like Isiah had an amazing 1989-90 playoff run.. But is it fair to say that the eastern conference finals that year vs Jordan was basically the finals that year? Isiah went 17.6 points, 40% shooting.

Point is, Isiah didn't take down Jordan, Magic etc as you say he did. The Detroit Pistons beat those guys. Steph was convincingly the best player on the Warriors all regular season, all playoffs and the finals MVP was a 50/50 that should have probably gone to Steph.

As for your hypothetical, that's completely unfair. Draymond is far superior to both Irving and Love. Even Klay Thompson is a much better player than Love. Klay vs Irving is a contest. Cleveland just weren't as good of a team as Golden State last year, injury ridden or not. Golden State had a 10.1 point differential last year, that ranks 8th all-time - they have a 12.6 this year which if they keep up will rank as the best ever (well actually the Spurs are at 13.4 right now so GSW might break the previous record and still not be first - crazy we have 2 all-time elite teams in the same season). Cleveland are really good but they just aren't in the same league.

I completely disagree with the bolded statement in your last paragraph.  Kyrie and Love are as good if not better on any other team in the NBA.  If Dray and Klay were the main guys on on any other team, no way are they as good as they are on that GSW roster...NO WAY.  They've discovered the key to playing selflessly and efficiently together which is a damn hard thing to do, but both those guys numbers go down the toilet if they are the main men on another team.  Yep, Love didn't take his T'wolves far on his own, and Kyrie the same with the Cavs, but they both put up great numbers and were consistent all-stars...Dray and Klay wouldn't be close to all-star status if they were the lone hand on another team...

Jay your great stats had me going, yep fair point, good call. I still disagree as thomas was the leader of that team and orchastrated it all as the point.

You lost me on green over irving.

Irving is a top 5 talent on offense. Green having a great year but he hasnt supassed irving even with irving lack of d.

Klay doenst come close to irving.

Holz

#1388
February 10, 2016, 10:17:03 AM
Quote from: plumdog millionaire on February 10, 2016, 06:54:03 AM
The gap isn't as big when you consider that Draymond is a top 5 defender in the league

for 1 year

Irving a top 5 offensive player for the last few years.

defense is also kinf of influenced by your team. Irving can score in any system

valkorum

#1389
February 10, 2016, 11:41:01 AM

plumdog millionaire

#1390
February 10, 2016, 01:56:47 PM
Quote from: Holz on February 10, 2016, 10:17:03 AM
Quote from: plumdog millionaire on February 10, 2016, 06:54:03 AM
The gap isn't as big when you consider that Draymond is a top 5 defender in the league

for 1 year

Irving a top 5 offensive player for the last few years.

defense is also kinf of influenced by your team. Irving can score in any system
I'm going to respectfully disagree on all three counts:

1. It's more than one year, it's all of last year and this season; it's a safe assumption he'll continue to be elite through this year and right now Draymond is a top 5 defender there's no argument to that.

2. Last few years yes, but not clearly top 5. If you're talking all round offensive players, give me LeBron, Durant, Melo, Steph, Harden and CP3. Irving is in a pool with Griffin, Westbrook, Cousins, and even Wade and Duncan if you're talking since Irving was drafted.

3. No. Offensive players can look good on some teams (or systems) as opposed to others but only to the slightest extent is the opposite true. Bad defenders can be hid and masked on good defensive schemes but we're not talking about that with Dray.

I like Irving as a player, and when you consider basketball I think offence is slightly more important than defence (About 60% offence vs 40% defence in my opinion) just because great offence can beat great defence, disagree with that if you may. But give me a choice between him or Draymond and I'm going to have a hard time picking one over the other.

jvalles69

#1391
February 10, 2016, 02:02:57 PM
Quote from: plumdog millionaire on February 10, 2016, 01:56:47 PM
Quote from: Holz on February 10, 2016, 10:17:03 AM
Quote from: plumdog millionaire on February 10, 2016, 06:54:03 AM
The gap isn't as big when you consider that Draymond is a top 5 defender in the league

for 1 year

Irving a top 5 offensive player for the last few years.

defense is also kinf of influenced by your team. Irving can score in any system
I'm going to respectfully disagree on all three counts:

1. It's more than one year, it's all of last year and this season; it's a safe assumption he'll continue to be elite through this year and right now Draymond is a top 5 defender there's no argument to that.

2. Last few years yes, but not clearly top 5. If you're talking all round offensive players, give me LeBron, Durant, Melo, Steph, Harden and CP3. Irving is in a pool with Griffin, Westbrook, Cousins, and even Wade and Duncan if you're talking since Irving was drafted.

3. No. Offensive players can look good on some teams (or systems) as opposed to others but only to the slightest extent is the opposite true. Bad defenders can be hid and masked on good defensive schemes but we're not talking about that with Dray.

I like Irving as a player, and when you consider basketball I think offence is slightly more important than defence (About 60% offence vs 40% defence in my opinion) just because great offence can beat great defence, disagree with that if you may. But give me a choice between him or Draymond and I'm going to have a hard time picking one over the other.

I think the statements are made in relation to if Dray or Kyrie played on any team (thats what my opinions based on anyway), I think Kyrie would be Kyrie on any NBA team, but Dray would not be GSW Dray on every NBA team.

Jay

#1392
February 10, 2016, 03:13:40 PM
I'll give you that Irving is a better offensive player than Draymond, simply because creating your own shot is a major skill. But it is closer than you think. The Warriors have the best offense in the league, and Draymond leads them in assists, keep in mind he is a power forward and also plays 18% of his minutes at centre. No surprise that he has the best assist % in the league among forwards and centres.

He keeps an offense rolling which is by far the best in Warriors history and is even much improved from last year. Obviously having Stephen Curry makes his job so much easier, but still being the 2nd best offensive player on this team is a pretty huge deal (could make the argument for Klay but I would lean towards Draymond. Is close though).

ESPN have Draymond 13th in their offensive real plus-minus. Irving is 69th but I don't put much weight to that as he's been coming back from injury and was 10th in that stat last year. But still shows that Draymond isn't exactly a zero on offense. Draymond is shooting 3.3 threes a game this season and hitting 42% of them which is pretty damn valuable too.

As for defense, it isn't even close. I think Draymond is a top 2 defender in the league - he finished 2nd to Kawhi in the defensive player of the year voting last year. And was obviously all defensive first-team. He was first in ESPN's defensive real plus-minus last year, and is 4th this year. Opponents are shooting 37.6% this season when guarded by Draymond - pretty incredible. He can switch out onto the perimeter and guard guys out there, and only allows 42.2% when he's protecting the rim which is the 3rd best mark in the league.

To put it simply :P Kyrie offense > Draymond.. Draymond defense >>> Kyrie

Holz

#1393
February 10, 2016, 03:51:44 PM
Quote from: Jayman on February 10, 2016, 03:13:40 PM
I'll give you that Irving is a better offensive player than Draymond, simply because creating your own shot is a major skill. But it is closer than you think. The Warriors have the best offense in the league, and Draymond leads them in assists, keep in mind he is a power forward and also plays 18% of his minutes at centre. No surprise that he has the best assist % in the league among forwards and centres.

He keeps an offense rolling which is by far the best in Warriors history and is even much improved from last year. Obviously having Stephen Curry makes his job so much easier, but still being the 2nd best offensive player on this team is a pretty huge deal (could make the argument for Klay but I would lean towards Draymond. Is close though).

ESPN have Draymond 13th in their offensive real plus-minus. Irving is 69th but I don't put much weight to that as he's been coming back from injury and was 10th in that stat last year. But still shows that Draymond isn't exactly a zero on offense. Draymond is shooting 3.3 threes a game this season and hitting 42% of them which is pretty damn valuable too.

As for defense, it isn't even close. I think Draymond is a top 2 defender in the league - he finished 2nd to Kawhi in the defensive player of the year voting last year. And was obviously all defensive first-team. He was first in ESPN's defensive real plus-minus last year, and is 4th this year. Opponents are shooting 37.6% this season when guarded by Draymond - pretty incredible. He can switch out onto the perimeter and guard guys out there, and only allows 42.2% when he's protecting the rim which is the 3rd best mark in the league.

To put it simply :P Kyrie offense > Draymond.. Draymond defense >>> Kyrie

Irving is not > green on offense.

Irving is coming off a bad injury and still putting up 18.3 points a game, however in the last month when he has got back to almost himself he is putting up 26.2 points on 54.3% fg with 6.6 assists.

I know Green does get quite a few assists but irving is historically only 1 assist less then green is going at now. Thats why Lebron being more of a Point then Curry is.

Green is a decent liability on FT (as most C are) whereas Irving is almost automatic and his 14.4 points a game cant compare to the offensive powerhouse of a fit kyrie irving.

Green is in a great system but he is in no means an offesnive player even comparable to irving. Irving could probably go to half the teams in the NBA and contend for a scoring title if healthy.

I would love to see Green do this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XcQmOQO78Q

defensively Irving isnt close to Green but offensively its the same 

RiOtChEsS

#1394
February 10, 2016, 04:36:02 PM
Quote from: valkorum on February 10, 2016, 11:41:01 AM
Apparently the Kings are NOT firing Coach Karl

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/240724/Kings-Decide-Not-To-Fire-George-Karl
bloody hell, surely it's only a matter of time, he knows about it, as if he wants to continue to coach them

plenty of decent coaches available atm too
Print
Go Up Pages 1 ... 91 92 93 94 95 ... 198
User actions