History

[ossie85]

Hawthorn's 2008 side was not as good as the Lions or Cats dominant sides of recent years. Neither side produced a player anywhere near Buddy's output, so I think the supply argument doesn't hold true.

You make it sound so easy Q. I'd really like to know your definition of a great forward if supply doesn't count. What? They ruck, tap down to themselves and kick everything themselves. Madness!

[Master Q]

Ok then, if we take away supply. Which players are Tredrea better at, but they have to be A or maybe B++ Forwards. For example you can't say Tredders is better then Watts.

And, before I posted I looked at a few players stats. Now, would you have the heart to admit Brendan Fevola is better?

[ossie85]

Tredrea played at CHF, Fevola at FF.

Fevola kicks more goals, no doubt! Tredrea was more influential in a game - much like Riewoldt or Brown. Tredrea is on par with what Brown and Roo have been in recent years. So very, very good.

Comparing Fevola and Franklin is better because of the position they play, and I think they are both freaks. Who would I rather on my team? I believe Franklin is more versatile.

[Master Q]

Tredrea here, not Buddy. Plus, Tredrea played both.

[numberwang]

Was interesting that Treds had such a dominant yr in 04 but failed to make an impression in the grand final. One of three of the best CHF's of the decade.

[Alex7089]

I agree I would much rather have Franklin than Fev, you don't have a clue what you will get with Fev and if he is failing he can't do anything with Buddy just chuck him on the wing and it's all good

[Master Q]

Alex I'm not sure if you've noticed. If Buddy doesn't get enough supply you'll loose. Buddy will kick 6/10, which is bad. Hawthorn could afford that because their Backs and Mids were great.

[ossie85]

Alex I'm not sure if you've noticed. If Buddy doesn't get enough supply you'll loose. Buddy will kick 6/10, which is bad. Hawthorn could afford that because their Backs and Mids were great.

IF ANY FORWARD DOESN'T GET SUPPLY YOU LOSE!! You keep saying that it was because of the supply, yet fail to point out that teams with BETTER midfields and backlines don't have anyone near the calibre of Franklin at FF.

..... *breathes deeply*

Please detail to me what a forward needs to do to get the Q stamp of approval:

[Master Q]

The Q Forward

Q: How do I become a "Q Forward"?
A: To become a Q Forward, you must earn the Q Stamp of Approval.

Q: How do I earn the "Q Stamp of Approval"?
A: Well -

You must be able to kick over 55 goals per year consistently without an extreme amount of supply

You must have an accurate kick

You must have a relatively strong mark

You must have the ability to play both sometimes play dual positions eg: FF and CHF

You must have the ability to often win contests that are 50/50 or 40/60

You must have the ability to kick over 7 goals in one game, twice.

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Now It's not finished yet and If you would like to add anything you can.
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Shall we see if he gets to be a Q Forward?

The first one is you must be able to kick over 55 goal per year consistently without extreme supply. Now I'll be honest here, he only had an extreme amount of supply in 2004. He didn't kick any goals in 97' because he only played one game so we don't count that, and we don't count this year as he only played 7 games. I don't think we should count 06' because he only played 11 games, but I'll note how many he kicked in that year later.

So in 10 years, he kicked over 55 goals 3 times, one of them being in the Premiership year. Now  3/10 isn't that great, so I think it's a No for that one. Extra Stat, he kicked 17 goals in 11 games in 06' which makes me think he defiantly doesn't deserve this one.

The next one is you must have an accurate kick, here are the stats:

98' 33.18     -   More then 50%
99' 40.30     -   More then 50%
00' 32.35     -   More Points Then Goals
01' 51.36     -   More then 50%
02' 49.41     -   More then 50%
03' 58.36     -   More then 50%
04' 81.44     -   More then 50%
05' 65.45     -   More then 50%
06' 17.8       -   Less then 50% 
07' 31.21     -   More then 50%
08' 38.19     -   50%
09' 51'27     -   More then 50%
10' 10.2      -    Less then 50%

Total Accuracy - 61%

(More then 50% represents, more points then half of the goals, and the opposite for Less then)

I added the percentage just for an extra touch, but I don't judge It on that. But If you look at the stats I think you would say he isn't that accurate, or not accurate enough.


Next is you must have a relatively strong mark. I think he does.

After that is: You must have the ability to play both sometimes play dual positions eg: FF and CHF. This one isn't rare, but he still wins it.

Next is: You must have the ability to win contests that are 50/50 or 40/60. Now on paper you can't work this out, but I don't remember him winning hard contests but this one is on opinion. IMO he wasn't good enough.

Finally: You must have the ability to kick over 7 goals in one game, twice and. Basically this is seeing if you can kick a lot of goals in a game.5 He kicked over 7, 5 times. So he wins this one. Extra Stat: He never kicked 8 goals or more.

Stat Tests: 2.5 Points
Opinion Tests: 1 Point
Dual Positions Test: 0.5

To Earn Q Stamp of Approval: 5.5 Points

How He Went:

Stat Tests: 1 out of 3. 2.5 Points
Opinion Tests: 1 out of 2. 1 Point
Dual Positions Test: 1 out of 1. O.5 Points

Total: 4 Points.

Tredders is not a Q Forward.

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Let me get this straight, Tredders is a great Forward, I just think he is an amazing goal kicker.

[ossie85]

98' 33.18     -   Less then 50%
99' 40.30     -   Less then 50%
00' 32.35     -   More Points Then Goals
01' 51.36     -   Less then 50%
02' 49.41     -   Less then 50%
03' 58.36     -   Less then 50%
04' 81.44     -   Less then 50%
05' 65.45     -   Less then 50%
06' 17.8       -   More then 50%  :P
07' 31.21     -   Less then 50%
08' 38.19     -   50%
09' 51'27     -   Less then 50%
10' 10.2      -    More then 50%

Learn how to do math Q. Seriously. Except for 2000, ALL of those years are above 50%.

Unless you have stats about out on fulls that you're not sharing.

[ossie85]

1998: 65%
1999: 57%
2000: 48%
2001: 59%
2002: 54%
2003: 62%
2004: 65%
2005: 59%
2006: 68%
2007: 60%
2008: 67%
2009: 65%
2010: 83%

I think Tredrea meets everyone of your criteria, except your 55+ goals arbitrary number.

Total accuracy: 61%

Is not the most accurate kick, but not the worst.

[Master Q]

$H*T! Didn't the wrong way round, I meant

98' 33.18     -   More then 50%
99' 40.30     -   More then 50%
00' 32.35     -   More Points Then Goals
01' 51.36     -   More then 50%
02' 49.41     -   More then 50%
03' 58.36     -   More then 50%
04' 81.44     -   More then 50%
05' 65.45     -   More then 50%
06' 17.8       -   Less then 50% 
07' 31.21     -   More then 50%
08' 38.19     -   50%
09' 51'27     -   More then 50%
10' 10.2      -    Less then 50%


as in 18 points is more then half of his goals. I'll fix that.

[Master Q]

I think Tredrea meets everyone of your criteria, except your 55+ goals arbitrary number.

Is not the most accurate kick, but not the worst.

Well he still doesn't pass the Accuracy test.

So if we go through it: 

Your View
(Can't Deny) Stats Test: 1/3. 2.5
Opinion Test: 2/2. 2.0
Dual Positions Test: 1/1. 0.5

Total: 5.0

My View
Stats Test: 1/3. 2.5
Opinion: 1/2. 1.0
Dual Positions Test: 1/1. 0.5

Total: 4.

Benchmark: 5.5

Still doesn't make it.

[ossie85]

$H*T! Didn't the wrong way round, I meant

98' 33.18     -   More then 50%
99' 40.30     -   More then 50%
00' 32.35     -   More Points Then Goals
01' 51.36     -   More then 50%
02' 49.41     -   More then 50%
03' 58.36     -   More then 50%
04' 81.44     -   More then 50%
05' 65.45     -   More then 50%
06' 17.8       -   Less then 50% 
07' 31.21     -   More then 50%
08' 38.19     -   50%
09' 51'27     -   More then 50%
10' 10.2      -    Less then 50%


as in 18 points is more then half of his goals. I'll fix that.

That way doesn't make sense Q. It's not how accuracy is measured.

The formula is (goals)/(goals + behinds)

I'm starting to wonder if you actually watched him play in his prime, or came up with an opinion uninformed but not wanting to admit you don't know what you're talking about, came up with a strange scoring system to justify your own point.

Your View
(Can't Deny) Stats Test: 1/3. 2.5
Opinion Test: 2/2. 2.0
Dual Positions Test: 1/1. 0.5

Total: 5.0

My View
Stats Test: 1/3. 2.5
Opinion: 1/2. 1.0
Dual Positions Test: 1/1. 0.5

I can't even interpret that.

But Feel Free To Explain It To Me In Mis-Used Proper Nouns.

[Master Q]

$H*T! Didn't the wrong way round, I meant

98' 33.18     -   More then 50%
99' 40.30     -   More then 50%
00' 32.35     -   More Points Then Goals
01' 51.36     -   More then 50%
02' 49.41     -   More then 50%
03' 58.36     -   More then 50%
04' 81.44     -   More then 50%
05' 65.45     -   More then 50%
06' 17.8       -   Less then 50% 
07' 31.21     -   More then 50%
08' 38.19     -   50%
09' 51'27     -   More then 50%
10' 10.2      -    Less then 50%


as in 18 points is more then half of his goals. I'll fix that.

That way doesn't make sense Q. It's not how accuracy is measured.

The formula is (goals)/(goals + behinds)

Ossie if you look earlier it says I don't judge it on the actual figure, It's just an Add-on to the stat. And of course you don't measure it like that, It's just an extra, who do you think I am? A AFL fan from Jamaica?.

I'm starting to wonder if you actually watched him play in his prime, or came up with an opinion uninformed but not wanting to admit you don't know what you're talking about, came up with a strange scoring system to justify your own point.

It's my opinion, and you asked what gets my Stamp of Approval.

Stat Tests: 2.5 Points
Opinion Tests: 1 Point
Dual Positions Test: 0.5

So, the Stat Tests get 2.5 Points right?
Opinion tests get 1 and the Dual Position Test gets 0.5.

So, Tredrea needs 5.5 Points to get the "Q Stamp of Approval". Now lets go along with your opinion and the stamps guidelines. He didn't pass the kick more then 55 goals one, and he didn't pass the accuracy test either. But he did pass the kick 7 goals in a game, twice test. So that leaves him on 2.5.

Next is the Opinion Tests, earlier you kind of noted that he passed both Opinion tests which are the relatively strong mark, and winning hard contests. He gets 1 for each, which leaves him on 4.5

Last of all is the Dual Position test, which is worth 0.5. He passes that, so he gets a final score of

5.0 out of a possible 10. He needed 5.5 to get my stamp, any questions?